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Power Grid: Benelux/Central Europe» Forums » Rules

Subject: bureaucracy for the Benelux map rss

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Sven Lamberti-Meng
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Hi,
is there anyone knowing about what to do first, either remove the smallest plant or to put the biggest one under the pile? Or do you have to do those two actions at once? There are several situations that may cause different piles depending on the order you do these things....

Best regards, vioplayer.
 
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Kendall Johns
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I cannot see how this can make much difference. Unless you replace the card before the removing the next. This would seem to be wrong; Therefore we do both together.
 
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C.K. Au
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I would say you do both at the same time

i. Remove lowest power plant
ii. Put highest power plant under Step 3
iii. Draw 2 replacement plants back.

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Scott Chupack
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Yes, we had this issue for our first game. The Step 3 card came out as the first of 2 cards replaced. So, I assume here that the card under the Step 3 goes into the market before you resolve the Step 3 conditions.
 
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Drake Storm
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Just played the Benelux Map twice. From the rules (or lack of), we figured that you take the smallest plant and put it on the bottom INSTEAD of the highest, not both!

The game played pretty well that way (different from the original, but not worse per se, just different).

Now will have to play where the smallest gets removed and largest goes on bottom. So yeah, I guess what order that happens could come into play at some point.

 
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Fraser
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DrakeStorm wrote:
Just played the Benelux Map twice. From the rules (or lack of), we figured that you take the smallest plant and put it on the bottom INSTEAD of the highest, not both!

The game played pretty well that way (different from the original, but not worse per se, just different).

Now will have to play where the smallest gets removed and largest goes on bottom. So yeah, I guess what order that happens could come into play at some point.


Yes, the lowest is removed (during steps 1 and 2).

Since the rules say that "in addition to the standard rules" we played that we did the Benelux removal after the putting the highest plant under the deck. Six of one, half dozen of the other really. I think so long as you do it consistently, it shouldn't matter much which way you do it.
 
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B. Huddleston
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Having just received this expansion, the following sequence makes more since to me:
1. Remove the lowest power plant
2. Replace
3. Remove the highest power plant
4. Replace

I think this would help keep some of the highest numbered power plants out of play until step three.

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Wayne Louvier
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As for the lowest plant, it is removed from the game. The Benelux rules say nothing about putting on the bottom of the draw deck. So that much seems clear. It is no different than when plants go obsolete (equal or more cites that the size of the lowest plant). They just go out of the game. This new rule serves the same function accelerating us through the deck to the Step 3 card which started at the bottom. The rules even note this purpose. Putting the low cards on the bottom of the deck (meaning they would only come up again after step 3) would be useless. No one would be interested in those plants at that stage.

So, the order in which they are removed does not matter, since one is removed from the game and the other goes to the bottom of the deck.

But the order could affect the market. Lets say the market has 35 on top and 18 on the bottom. The next two draws are 14 and 40. If you start with removing and replacing the largest plant, the 35 would go to the bottom of the deck, the 14 would come up and immediately get tossed as smallest. The replacement would be the 40 leaving 40 on top and 18 on bottom.

Same cards, but replace the small one first: The 18 is tossed as smallest and the 14 comes up as new smallest, the 35 goes to the bottom of the deck and the 40 becomes the new top of the market.

Same two scenarios, but with the 40 as the first draw and the 14 second. Swap the large plant first and you get 35 to the bottom of the deck and the 18 goes out. You end up with 40 top and 14 bottom.

Swap small plant first, you lose 18, draw 40, 40 to bottom of deck, draw 14 and end with 35 high and 14 low.

I'm too lazy to work out when one or both draw cards are NOT the new high or low, but I'm guessing it doesn't matter in that case if you do one after the other.

And there is a third option. Remove both simultaneously and draw two cards. This of course would get different results in different circumstances.

The best option is probably regular rule then new rule as McHarg suggested. So largest to bottom, replace, smallest out, replace. But as noted, any of the 3 ways is probably equally random. Maybe I'll write to Rio Grande.
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Wayne Louvier
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OK folks, I have the definitive answer to handling bureaucracy on the Benelux map directly from Rio Grande Games. Here is their e-mail back to me in response to my questions:

Quote:
1. Is the smallest power plant removed from the game?

yes

2. Do you:

c. Remove both largest and smallest before
drawing any cards, then draw two cards and then reorder
the market.

do this!

Thanks for your interest in Rio Grande Games.

Jay Tummelson
Rio Grande Games
www.riograndegames.com


So Jeffrey Au got it right! Thumbs up!
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Runar Dankel
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We had a problem here. 4 players did as the post over suggest, but we ran out of plants. So there where only one plant in the market when the game was over. Did we do anything wrong?
 
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Michael Webb
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Runar, no, nothing wrong.

Even in normal Power Grid it is possible to have no plants left in the market. It's a rare situation (I think I've seen it twice in 30+ games) but it can happen.
 
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Runar Dankel
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Thanks for the reply. Was a little worried. I lost because of it
I didn't like Power Grid in the start. But now I see that there are so many things you have to take into acccount !
 
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Steve Perriam
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just got this and had trhis question last night playing for the first time.

thumbs up to the Geek again for provifing an answer so quickly and easily
 
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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violplayer wrote:
Hi,
is there anyone knowing about what to do first, either remove the smallest plant or to put the biggest one under the pile? Or do you have to do those two actions at once? There are several situations that may cause different piles depending on the order you do these things....

Best regards, vioplayer.


See the FAQ on 2f-spiele.de - it says, you remove both plants at once.
 
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Troy Medler
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Laner wrote:
We had a problem here. 4 players did as the post over suggest, but we ran out of plants. So there where only one plant in the market when the game was over. Did we do anything wrong?


Probably not, but just remember that you only take out the extra plant during steps 1 and 2, not step 3.
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Dvd Avins
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Well, it's not extra in Stage 3, but you still remove it, just as you do even without the new rule.
 
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