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Subject: Still utterly confused about LOS rules rss

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Manu
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The more I look at posts on BGG trying to explain LOS, the more confused I am.

I am not used to block wargames, and the fact that the position of a block within a hex (read, along one of six possible edges) actually matters for LOS seems to really make the problem complicated. I like complexity, as long as I am able to understand it.

I have another session this evening, maybe it won't seem as complicated when playing

I think one that really befuddles me is this:



Crops is a terrain piece that has a defensive up-shift.
Therefore it potentially blocks LOS
In this example - if I understood correctly - LOS between these two units is blocked.

So, what would need to happen for either of these to fire on each other?

Would an infantry need a move order to first change position within it's own hex, to the opposite edge, and then fire?

Would a vehicle need to be in support mode to do the same?

If I have one wish, it is that the updated rules are very generous with visual examples and explanation of how LOS works.
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supamanu wrote:
I am not used to block wargames

(Note that no other block game works this way; also, the effect would be the same if you were to replace the blocks in this game with counters, which is something I've toyed with.)

supamanu wrote:
In this example - if I understood correctly - LOS between these two units is blocked.

Yes.

supamanu wrote:
So, what would need to happen for either of these to fire on each other?

Assuming north is up, the gray block needs to move so that it's facing east, and the green block needs to move so that it's facing west. If only one of those blocks changes its facing, it's still trying to tracing LOS through the other block's hex, which can't be done because the terrain in the hex blocks LOS.
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Dirk Knemeyer
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kuhrusty wrote:
supamanu wrote:
I am not used to block wargames

(Note that no other block game works this way; also, the effect would be the same if you were to replace the blocks in this game with counters, which is something I've toyed with.)

supamanu wrote:
In this example - if I understood correctly - LOS between these two units is blocked.

Yes.

supamanu wrote:
So, what would need to happen for either of these to fire on each other?

Assuming north is up, the gray block needs to move so that it's facing east, and the green block needs to move so that it's facing west. If only one of those blocks changes its facing, it's still trying to tracing LOS through the other block's hex, which can't be done because the terrain in the hex blocks LOS.


Kuhrusty's comments are all correct.

The updated rules will be rich in examples on this, that is a definite. :-)
 
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Nicholas Coelho
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kuhrusty wrote:
Assuming north is up, the gray block needs to move so that it's facing east, and the green block needs to move so that it's facing west. If only one of those blocks changes its facing, it's still trying to tracing LOS through the other block's hex, which can't be done because the terrain in the hex blocks LOS.


Is it fair to say that infantry in crop fields will never, ever engage in short range combat then? In this example, not one, but both sides would have to arrange their units adjacent and facing each other, with the second guy committing to this doing so with the knowledge that the OTHER guy gets to shoot first.

More than likely, one of the players would commit to a close combat and roll the dice, or vacate the area to deny the opponent a chance to do the same.
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Mark Buetow
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supamanu wrote:


Crops is a terrain piece that has a defensive up-shift.
Therefore it potentially blocks LOS
In this example - if I understood correctly - LOS between these two units is blocked.


The rules as written: ALL terrain pieces block LOS regardless of their offering cover or not.

Essentially, you can only see a unit in terrain when it is on a hexside you can touch without crossing that terrain.

The case where the two units are adjacent (as Rusty described) means that each unit's hexside can touch the other unit's hexside (since it's the same hexside!) and so the way to shoot at units in terrain is to be next to them.

Quote:
If I have one wish, it is that the updated rules are very generous with visual examples and explanation of how LOS works.


That's the plan.
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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RabbitMan wrote:
More than likely, one of the players would commit to a close combat and roll the dice, or vacate the area to deny the opponent a chance to do the same.

That sounds like a logical outcome of enemy troops facing each other across cropfields. Tain't gonna be a shootout.
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sdiberar wrote:
RabbitMan wrote:
More than likely, one of the players would commit to a close combat and roll the dice, or vacate the area to deny the opponent a chance to do the same.

That sounds like a logical outcome of enemy troops facing each other across cropfields. Tain't gonna be a shootout.


To be clear, one unit needs to move into the other unit's hex to initiate close combat, but, yeah, that'd be the more predictable move.

 
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Manu
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Thanks everyone. That clears it up. I assume this is all true for both infantry AND vehicles (I have no reason to believe otherwise from the rules, but well tanks are BIG and would have trouble hiding in crops).
 
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Rex Gator
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This is another case where the differences between War Stories and other hex&counter board games do not really hit home until you are in the midst of play.

Traditional hex&counter wargames have instilled the idea that the centerpoint of the hex is the "location" of the unit occupying the hex and therefore all assessments of LOS focus on reaching that point. This is a practical and useful abstraction to make game play easier to regulate.

War Stories seems to be taking the idea that there are many points within the boundaries of a hex where a unit might reside. This has been abstracted to the six hexsides being the possible locations and all assessments of LOS being to the particular hexside on which a block is located.

I think many of us have struggled with this because we have decades of "training" that tells us that is not how you determine LOS.

I could pontificate on this more but will stop here with this observation.
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supamanu wrote:
Thanks everyone. That clears it up. I assume this is all true for both infantry AND vehicles (I have no reason to believe otherwise from the rules, but well tanks are BIG and would have trouble hiding in crops).


That's correct.
 
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rexgator wrote:
This is another case where the differences between War Stories and other hex&counter board games do not really hit home until you are in the midst of play.

Traditional hex&counter wargames have instilled the idea that the centerpoint of the hex is the "location" of the unit occupying the hex and therefore all assessments of LOS focus on reaching that point. This is a practical and useful abstraction to make game play easier to regulate.

War Stories seems to be taking the idea that there are many points within the boundaries of a hex where a unit might reside. This has been abstracted to the six hexsides being the possible locations and all assessments of LOS being to the particular hexside on which a block is located.

I think many of us have struggled with this because we have decades of "training" that tells us that is not how you determine LOS.

I could pontificate on this more but will stop here with this observation.


I think doing it the way War Stories does adds some unique aspects such as (1) making facing and flanking important and (2) giving some sneaky LOS opportunities (both for having LOS or keeping out of LOS) which make it play a bit differently than the usual tactical fare.
 
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