Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
27 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Sentinels of the Multiverse» Forums » Variants

Subject: Custom Hero - Victoria - Overtime Comics Expansion rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Maciej Stępiński
Poland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Here's yet another hero from comic book "Turbulence" by Chris Garret, the third one designed by me (though Gravnos is not finished). For more information and decks, visit the original thread.

---

Deck goal: Since I hate repeating myself, Victoria is a completely different beast than both Turbulence and Gravnos before her. Her modus operandi is "play bunch of cards that hurt you as well, but should hurt villains more in the longrun, heal when necessary". A lot of her cards have a keyword "Growth". These cards all share the same characteristic- they deal irreducible damage to Victoria whenever she plays/uses them, but they combo with each other and other cards she has rather nicely. She can do a lot of stuff- deal damage in huge bulks to single targets or multiple, tank, heal, buff, destroy environment, debuff enemies etc.

The catch is, she's not a team player, at all. Damage buffs hurt her a lot more than other heroes, she can heal only herself and generally cares mostly about her own being. She supports by killing/destroying stuff, so there's that. So far she worked fairly well when I playtested her, but she's far from done.

---



Victoria

HP: 30

Wild Growth
Power: Reveal top card of your deck. Put it into play or discard it.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Yes, it's a weaker version of Captain Cosmic's power. In my defense, I designed her before I played Wrath of Cosmos. This power may change and I usually stop using it once she gets Cold Shower or Crush.


Incapacitated Powers::
-One hero regains 2 HP
-Destroy an environment card
-Choose a hero target. First time that hero takes damage from non-hero target each turn, he deals that target 1 toxic damage.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
All of these are equivalents of Victoria's signature skills. Not sure about the last one though.


One-shots: (16)

A little soak: Victoria regains 2 HP. Then, if Victoria has 10 or less HP, she regains 3 HP. (x4)

Spoiler (click to reveal)
A healing card that works a lot better when you're near death. Should you save it till later, or use it immediately to keep your health high for tanking?


Grow: Draw 1 card. Search your deck for a Growth card and put it in your hand. Shuffle your deck. Play a card. (x3)

Spoiler (click to reveal)
considering how much she relies on Growth cards, this was a given.


Regrow: Take a Growth card from your trash pile and put it into play. (x3).

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Pretty straightforward. She can't take cards from trash in any other way, so this card is handy when you're in a pinch.


Toss: If there are no Constricted targets in play, Victoria deals 1 target 3 projectile damage. If there is at least one Constricted target in play, choose one. That target deals 1 target other than itself 4 projectile damage and then deals itself 4 melee damage. (x3)

Spoiler (click to reveal)
This card makes sense when you read what Constrict does.


Rip apart: Destroy an environment card. You may take Toss from your trash into your hand. (x3)

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Simple and clean. She destroys the area to get herself stuff to throw. How themewise it combines with Constrict is a story better not told.


Ongoings (Growth): (12)

Barkskin (Limited, Growth): When this card enters play, Victoria deals herself 1 irreducible cold damage. Reduce damage dealt to Victoria by 1. (x2)

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Nuff said.


Rose has thorns (Limited, Growth): When this card enters play, Victoria deals herself 1 irreducible cold damage. Whenever Victoria is dealt damage by a target other than herself, Victoria deals that target 1 toxic damage. (x2)

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Also nuff said. Combos nicely with Toxic Spike below.


Toxic Spike (Limited, Growth): When this card enters play, Victoria deals herself 1 irreducible cold damage. First time Victoria deals toxic damage to a target each turn, she may also deal 1 irreducible psychic damage to that target. (x2)

Spoiler (click to reveal)
This is what turns her from 'ok damage dealer' into 'oh my god hurts so much', by basically multiplying her damage, provided it's of the toxic variety (I shudder thinking just how much she can do with Twist the Ether). 1 damage doesn't sound too bad, but being irreducible is not something to scoff at.


Vine hair (Growth): At the end of your turn, Victoria may deal herself 1 irreducible cold damage. If she does, Victoria deals 1 target 3 toxic damage or 3 targets 1 toxic damage. (x3)

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Her bread and butter. Sure, it costs her health everytime she does (hurts even more when she's buffed), but it activates every turn and can snowball pretty fast with Toxic Spike, Mood Swing and Power Shower.
Note that this card is not limited, meaning she can have up to 3 in play, at which point you're basically set for the game.
This card might be too good- one let her deal a lot of damage, I never managed to get three into play at the same time. This may change.


Constrict (Growth): Play this card next to a non-character target. That target is "Constricted". Reduce damage dealt by this target by 1. When target next to this card leaves play, destroy this card. At the start of your turn, target next to this card deals Victoria 3 irreducible melee damage or destroy this card. At the end of your turn, you may play Toss from your hand. (x3)

Spoiler (click to reveal)
That's a lot of text, I know. Basically what happens, is that Victoria constricts a target, weakening it slightly and taking damage from it every turn, but it unlocks the full potential of Crush and Toss. She can constrict as many targets as she wants (if she has enough cards) or put more on a single target (this could shut down some nasty cards).


Ongoings: (4)

Power shower (Limited): When this cards enters play, Victoria regains 3 HP. Victoria is immune to cold damage dealt by herself. At the start of your next turn, destroy this card. (x2)
Spoiler (click to reveal)

Her endgame finisher. Put this on, get some HP back and use all Vine hair you so desire for no costs. Couple with Mood Swing below and she wrecks the entire game, provided she has her full set.


Mood swing (Limited): At the start of your turn, either increase all or decrease all damage dealt by Victoria by 1 until start of your next turn. (x2)

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I made this card as a thematic gimmick for the character, but this ended up combining with other cards a lot cooler than I thought.
For one, you choose at the start of your turn if you want to be aggressive or calm and this choice stays until next turn (even if you lose this card). Increasing damage makes her stronger, but paying Growth costs and hurts more, while lowering makes her damage a lot lower, but nullifies damage she deals to herself (unless irreducible isn't reduced ever, in which case I made a serious mistake in my entire sentinels career).
Note that you MUST choose one or the other, you can't stay at 0.


Powers: (5)

Cold shower (Limited): Power: Victoria regains 2 HP. Next time Victoria would deal herself cold damage, prevent it. (x2)

Spoiler (click to reveal)
A well replacement for her innate power. Might be a little too useful, but I didn't found it as OP as it sounds first. Combos really well with Mood Swing. Also note- this effect stay until used, so you might prevent damage from a card you play in later turn.


Crush (Limited): Power: Deal one target 2 melee damage. If that target is Constricted, change that damage to toxic and
increase it by 1. (x3)
Spoiler (click to reveal)

Simple and clean damage. Why changing the type to toxic damage is awesome should be obvious.


---

Some comments after playtests:
-At some point I was able to deal constant barrage of 4 damage + 2 irreducible with Mood Swing, Vine Hair and Toxic Spike, for cost of 2 damage which was nullified by Cold Shower. And that's without playing any cards.
-Constrict+Toss combo sounds amazing, until you realize that the target deals 1 less damage, meaning it's only 3 to a target, than to itself. Doesn't benefit from Toxic Spike or Mood Swing, but oh well.
-I need to test it in Pike Industrial and see what happens when toxic vat comes into play #hilarityensues
-I still havent designed the last 3 cards. I'm open to suggestions.
-I also keep forgetting to give her incap powers. It's getting awkward whenever she's KO'ed during battle and I have no idea what powers to use.

As always, I'm open to suggestions.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jay B
United States
Wyoming
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
From the second edition rulebook -

Irreducible: If damage is irreducible, it cannot be reduced by any effect. Irreducible damage can still be increased or redirected. Irreducible damage can also be prevented entirely by effects that prevent damage, or by targets that are immune to damage.


So it looks like Mood Swing would not affect the damage she is dealing herself, but Cold Shower would still prevent it.

Maybe for those last three cards, give her a way to redirect that cold damage she deals to herself?

Or, playing on the plant theme, a regrowth/rebirth along the lines of Fanatic's "Aegis of Resurrection"?

As far as Incap powers, some suggestions -
1 target deals itself 1 Toxic Damage
1 Hero takes a card from their trash and places it on top of their deck.
Put an Environment card in play on the bottom of the Environment deck

I've never read the comic you drew her from but she sounds like lots of fun. I'm interested to see the final product.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maciej Stępiński
Poland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MischiefGodLoki wrote:
From the second edition rulebook -

Irreducible: If damage is irreducible, it cannot be reduced by any effect. Irreducible damage can still be increased or redirected. Irreducible damage can also be prevented entirely by effects that prevent damage, or by targets that are immune to damage.


So it looks like Mood Swing would not affect the damage she is dealing herself, but Cold Shower would still prevent it.

Well... yeah, now we have a problem. I'll need to reconfigure some of her cards to keep the original effect in play.

Quote:
Maybe for those last three cards, give her a way to redirect that cold damage she deals to herself?

I guess that might work.

Quote:
Or, playing on the plant theme, a regrowth/rebirth along the lines of Fanatic's "Aegis of Resurrection"?

Or that. She's slowly turning into Apostate clone.

Quote:
I've never read the comic you drew her from but she sounds like lots of fun. I'm interested to see the final product.

Visit the original thread, there's a link to the digital version of the first volume, free of charge. It's pretty good stuff.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Garrett

Texas
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Another great looking one man, I'm going to carve out some time on Saturday to test this!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maciej Stępiński
Poland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I just added incap abilities. I'll fix the "irreducible" damage thing later.

I'm thinking of adding two more cards to the mix (as per Jay B's suggestion).

Not done yet (Ongoing, Limited): When Victoria would be reduced to 0 or less HP, destroy any number of Growth cards. Restore Victoria to x HP, where x is the number of Growth cards destroyed. Then, destroy this card.

Rip and tear (One-shot): Destroy any number of Growth cards. Victoria deals 1 target x damage, then regains x HP, where x is the number of cards destroyed this way.

The max number of growth cards that can be in play is 9, but that includes having all 3 Constricts in play, which is kinda hard to do. The problem I had with Victoria, is that once she gets her card in play it's hard to get rid of them unless villain/environment loves to destroy them regularly. That way, no only you have something to use your surplus cards for, but it makes Regrow a bit more useful (which it wasn't when I played).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dennison Milenkaya
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Hey Jet. I usually like your suggestions and contributions but I really think you missed with this one. This just doesn't feel at all like the character from the comic book. The self-damage is pointless and doesn't function the way you originally figured it would. It lacks a unique flavor to bring out the heroine's personality. And almost everything it does is just done in many other decks faster and better.

Victoria doesn't hurt herself in the comics in order to do cool stuff. She drinks (or absorbs) water to do cool stuff. There isn't a good way to represent water in this game, however. I've looked for a good fit when attempting to design a particular villain and a particular environment and eventually shelved both ideas. Cold damage doesn't quite fit the role, but it may be the closest we can reach. But there's a problem, then with using it for Victoria to maintain her cards.

1) Water doesn't hurt Victoria.

2) Her cards don't need her to pay for them with HP to maintain since they aren't individually very good. Combined, a lot of them are good, but then you are paying a heavy toll just to reach the point where you have lots of cards in play. The slow build and vulnerability to destruction are already balancing features of this sort of character design, so the damage isn't necessary.

3) You include several ways to abate, ignore, or take advantage of the self-damage effect, which really bases her performance on how quickly she can do those things. By the time I saw the third method of alleviating the self-damage (which doesn't so far include the healing), I felt like you were having "maintenance fee remorse" -- a condition that affects about 42% of card designers worldwide, where they come up with an idea and then try to patch it so hard that you wonder why they even stuck with that idea in the first place. Only your statistician knows if you have maintenance fee remorse*, but a healthy diet, exercise, and bed rest can help.

* So does your banker.

4) Self-damage isn't very inventive, either. There's already one character based around it: Nightmist. I'd like to take a moment to discuss why this works so well for her. See, virtually all of her cards have a variable to their effect and this is meant to be rather random or hard to predict. This means that if she plays a card that lets her or a teammate draw cards, it can result in drawing 1, 2, 3, or 4 cards. If she plays a card to destroy an environment card, she may also be allowed to destroy up to 3 other Ongoing or environment cards with it. How to balance a card that can draw 1 or 4 or destroy 1 or 4 cards? Through no fault of the player, Nightmist's cards can be either really amazing or disappointing duds. The answer is to have her take damage equal to the effectiveness of the card. Draw more : suffer more. Destroy more : suffer more. Paint her background as delving into sinister forces she only somewhat understands, and the resulting self-damage becomes spiritual backlash. Brilliant!

The only other cards which cause self-damage are rare (almost never more than one per hero) and are meant to end those effects at some point before they ruin a game by making it too easy or otherwise to provide the heroes with tough choices about the necessity of the effect. Consider the Utility Belt [Wraith], Legacy Ring [Legacy], and Embolden [Fanatic]. All of these cards allow the bearer an additional power use but only Embolden inflicts damage. This is because Wraith and Legacy's decks are designed with the possibility of using more than one power per turn in mind, and are balanced to do such. Embolden can be granted to any hero, so there is no way to balance beforehand the impact that can have, so it comes with a maintenance fee.

Tachyon needs to be able to reasonably function within the "play 1, use 1 power, draw 1" format. And she does. Pushing The Limits, granting and additional play and draw, then, couldn't exist in her deck without weakening the average worth of her card plays (and they are already toned down, on average, compared to most decks) unless it came with a bit of a price. That price might've been discarding (which actually kinda helps Tachyon, but she has lots of that already and it rather moots the card draw of the effect), helping the villain (which thematically doesn't fit), or hurting herself or a friend (but I think we like to avoid hurting friends for our own benefit in a superhero team game). It is logical that she could be harmed by running too quickly around the world (there's a lot of things to get snagged on!) so that's the best fee.

Basically, I feel like there's no rational, thematic, functional, or interesting purpose to Victoria harming herself to maintain her cards. Furthermore, none of them include a way to ditch themselves, lest maintaining them would finish her off.

Let's just say it's a bad idea.

Jettosan wrote:
Here's yet another hero from comic book "Turbulence" by Chris Garret, [Victoria.] She can do a lot of stuff- deal damage in huge bulks to single targets or multiple, tank, heal, buff, destroy environment, debuff enemies etc.

The catch is, she's not a team player, at all.

I agree that she should be very versatile. But I think that her problem shouldn't be about not playing well on a team. This game is about teamwork and the card interactions are the most interesting part about it. Besides, she worked fine with Turbulence in the comic, the only time we see her in action not by herself.

I'd say that her biggest problem is that she needs water in order to perform well, and that means she may occasionally be unable to use her best abilities. So my idea is that she has lots of Ongoing cards that let her do stuff when "Water" is available, but otherwise do little or nothing. Then we give her cards with a Water keyword and invent a way for them to interact with her deck. Because the most likely scenario is Water falling, then draining away, I have the inclination to trigger her card effects when a Water card hits her trash. In order to prevent too much control (by playing One-Shots, which go then to the trash), I'd also limit the trigger to when such cards a discarded (One-Shots aren't discarded; they are put in the trash when complete).

This means that only effects which specifically say "discard" would trigger her Water-dependent effects, but they may come from her deck or hand. Occasionally, she can do cool stuff, therefore, on the environment and villain turns, but otherwise, she'd rely on her own card effects telling her when she may discard. Sometimes, she'll get a boost by a hero like Chrono Ranger playing "Just Doin' My Job" or take advantage of some attacks.

Jettosan wrote:




Victoria

HP: 30

Wild Growth
Power: Reveal top card of your deck. Put it into play or discard it.

Yes, it's a weaker version of Captain Cosmic's power. In my defense, I designed her before I played Wrath of Cosmos. This power may change and I usually stop using it once she gets Cold Shower or Crush.

I think we'll get better randomness by making her innate power really specific to her Water card triggering, so she always has access to a way of doing that, instead of making her a robot clone.

Prayers For Rain
Power: Discard the top 2 cards of two decks.

Being able to discard from the villain deck is possibly quite strong, but without knowing what's up there, maybe it isn't a good idea. Other heroes will be able to know, and that makes for good interaction.

Jettosan wrote:
Incapacitated Powers::
-One hero regains 2 HP
-Destroy an environment card
-Choose a hero target. First time that hero takes damage from non-hero target each turn, he deals that target 1 toxic damage.
All of these are equivalents of Victoria's signature skills. Not sure about the last one though.

These work for me. But her deck needs to be adjusted.

A Little Soak
Ongoing
When a Water card is discarded, Victoria regains 2 HP.

Constrict
Ongoing
When this card enters play, place it next to a target without a Constrict card next to it. When this target leaves play, destroy this card.

Reduce damage dealt by this target by 1.

Squeeze
Ongoing
When a Water card is discarded, Victoria deals all targets next to Constrict cards 2 melee damage each.

Rip Apart
One-Shot
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. For each Water card revealed, you may destroy an Ongoing or environment card. Discard the revealed cards.

Barkskin
Ongoing
Reduce damage dealt to Victoria by 1.

Rose Has Thorns
Ongoing
Whenever Victoria is dealt damage by another target, Victoria deals that target 1 melee damage.

Toxic Spike
Ongoing
Power: Until the start of your next turn, the first time Victoria deals melee damage to each target, she also deals that target 1 toxic damage.

Vine hair
One-Shot
Discard the top card of your deck.

Victoria deals 1 target 3 toxic damage.

Power Shower
One-Shot
Discard 2 cards from your hand. Draw 3 cards.

Cold Shower
One-Shot
All hero targets regain 1 HP. Discard this card.

Crushing Vines
One-Shot
Victoria deals each Constricted target 4 melee damage.


Something like this would bring out the feel of the character from the comic a bit more, I think. This is just a few ideas that would need to be fully developed. Add the Water and Limited keywords where appropriate, adjust to the correct quantity of each card, and come up with some more ideas to finish the deck and I think it'll represent the character more accurately and feel unlike any other we've seen before.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maciej Stępiński
Poland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
1) Water doesn't hurt Victoria.

2) Her cards don't need her to pay for them with HP to maintain since they aren't individually very good. Combined, a lot of them are good, but then you are paying a heavy toll just to reach the point where you have lots of cards in play. The slow build and vulnerability to destruction are already balancing features of this sort of character design, so the damage isn't necessary.

3) You include several ways to abate, ignore, or take advantage of the self-damage effect, which really bases her performance on how quickly she can do those things. By the time I saw the third method of alleviating the self-damage (which doesn't so far include the healing), I felt like you were having "maintenance fee remorse" -- a condition that affects about 42% of card designers worldwide, where they come up with an idea and then try to patch it so hard that you wonder why they even stuck with that idea in the first place. Only your statistician knows if you have maintenance fee remorse*, but a healthy diet, exercise, and bed rest can help.

* So does your banker.

About the "maintenence fee remorse" (I love it when we need to invent terms to easily explain our design problems)- it's not that I made the self-sacrifice mechanics and desperately tried to adhere to it. I had a very simple concept for Victoria:

"Great effects for great price."

I had few ideas of how to make it done:
1. Discard cards- this could backfire against villains and environments that force you to discard a lot of them, and could go the other way if there wasn't any.
2. Use tokens- I don't have to explain how much we, Sentinels fans, dislike the idea of using any third party components. Setback in itself is an anathema that everybody likes, but nobody wants to copy because it's too special for him.
3. Self-damage- which fit the most and could be worked around a bit easier than effects above.

I will fully admit that I wasn't satisfied with my current version and I'm not against burning it and starting from scratch, as long as the new idea works better. The current version went pretty well in my few test games that I had so far.

Quote:
Basically, I feel like there's no rational, thematic, functional, or interesting purpose to Victoria harming herself to maintain her cards. Furthermore, none of them include a way to ditch themselves, lest maintaining them would finish her off.

I feel like you misunderstood something important- she doesn't pay the upkeep for any of them (aside from Constrict), she only gets damaged when she's either playing or using their effects. If you don't want to use Vine Hair every turn, nobody is forcing you, just let it sit there and wait for a good moment.

Quote:
I agree that she should be very versatile. But I think that her problem shouldn't be about not playing well on a team. This game is about teamwork and the card interactions are the most interesting part about it. Besides, she worked fine with Turbulence in the comic, the only time we see her in action not by herself.

By "not a team player" I'm not saying she should kill her teammates and beat the game herself. I meant that she's supposed to be the lone wolf of the team- with them, but mostly doing her own, like Wolverine or Black Panther do on their respective teams (doesn't mean you can't arrange for a fastball special or two when needed). That means no support skills of any description and effects that don't benefit that much from other heroes. It's almost impossible to make a character who is against teamwork, since drawing cards, getting free powers or buffs is always a good thing. The self-damage was supposed to be a "stop inspiring me, Legacy!" moment that hardly any other hero has (Knyfe being the only real exception). Giving her cards that barely use her powers was another step- she will benefit from HP regen or occasional Crush, but most of her damage comes from other sources.

(Sidenote- that's the reason why I gave Gravnos so little buffs. He learned to formulate his tactics around her personality, to not accidentally give her too much power, but still make her useful. Yes, all the characters I made work with each other, surprised?)

The upside of her non-teamwork style is the overall higher power level and versatility she brings to the table. Or at least, that's what I wanted and I'm still aiming for it.

Quote:
I'd say that her biggest problem is that she needs water in order to perform well, and that means she may occasionally be unable to use her best abilities. So my idea is that she has lots of Ongoing cards that let her do stuff when "Water" is available, but otherwise do little or nothing. Then we give her cards with a Water keyword and invent a way for them to interact with her deck. Because the most likely scenario is Water falling, then draining away, I have the inclination to trigger her card effects when a Water card hits her trash. In order to prevent too much control (by playing One-Shots, which go then to the trash), I'd also limit the trigger to when such cards a discarded (One-Shots aren't discarded; they are put in the trash when complete).

This means that only effects which specifically say "discard" would trigger her Water-dependent effects, but they may come from her deck or hand. Occasionally, she can do cool stuff, therefore, on the environment and villain turns, but otherwise, she'd rely on her own card effects telling her when she may discard. Sometimes, she'll get a boost by a hero like Chrono Ranger playing "Just Doin' My Job" or take advantage of some attacks.

The "resource" thing was the biggest problem I had when designing her (as noted above) and I admit I never thought of something like you said, but I'm not sure that's the right way either.
For one, discarding cards from hand is 95% times a bad thing. You do NOT want to discard cards. 5% is when playing Tachyon or an occassional "take out from trash into play" effects. Making her benefit from discarding cards is interesting, but could completely change the way the game is played. Specifically, the "discard a card" or the dreaded "discard your hand" effects that cripple most heroes not named Tachyon, with her it's all like "pshht, whatevs, I just discarded 4 water cards and killed a bunch of minions", while the team is unharmed and she'll draw two her turn and repeat that. I could go on an on how much could go wrong, but I honestly don't feel the need.

Quote:
I think we'll get better randomness by making her innate power really specific to her Water card triggering, so she always has access to a way of doing that, instead of making her a robot clone.

Prayers For Rain
Power: Discard the top 2 cards of two decks.

Being able to discard from the villain deck is possibly quite strong, but without knowing what's up there, maybe it isn't a good idea. Other heroes will be able to know, and that makes for good interaction.

You read my post so far, I assume, so you know I'm not stubborn, I'm open to suggestions and changes, but I'm also giving a reason for every decision I make during the designing process. Which is why I ask you to not get offended when I say the line below:

What you said here couldn't be more wrong.

First of, I admit, removing cards from villain deck is amazing... when you know what it is. And ONLY then. I can't think of a single villain that you want to sift through their deck faster, while I can think of a bunch of villains that BENEFIT from having their deck used up faster. Baron Blade has it in his winning condition, Akashbhuta will flip faster, Friction will hit harder, Voss, Omnitron and Dawn can bring them back easily, and Dawn can in fact flip faster if you accidentally remove citizens like this (especially when it's the least harmful ones that you don't mind keeping alive).
Sure, you can win easier against Gloomweaver, but that's his problem.

Similar things happen to heroes, as most heroes don't mind having big trash per say (big trash =/= discards from hand)- higher level players will play around knowing what won't be coming (knowing all Ground Pounds are gone means I won't bother hoping for it, having bunch of Ammo will make Speed Loading a lot more useful), unless it's something critical. Meanwhile, it will make some heroes downright stronger- Tachyon likes her trash bigger (provided she doesn't lose Lightning Barrage) and Nightmist can heal better etc.

Ergo, I see a power which is so situational, so rarely makes a difference, it can't ever be reliable for Victoria herself. You can spend your turns annoyed that you discarded two awesome non-water cards. Unless you want to use other effects to stack her decks, but if you need to do that to properly function, then the character is just not fun, maybe unless she does it herself.
Bear in mind- she is no Setback. With him, it's a question of "do I take a risk or should I play safe for now?". With your version of Victoria it's all "here goes nothing, hope I'll be useful this time". It's the equivalent of rolling dice for attack check- you either do good, or do nothing, with barely any input from yourself. The reason why most games get away with it, is because that's the rule for everyone. It's not fun when it's just for one player.

And I hate that idea. I hate the idea of being frustrated at the table because I couldn't help beat the villain because my deck was against me, and I hate the idea of winning a tough battle because "the heart of the deck was with me" this time. That's not the Sentinels I know and love. There's already enough randomness in the game- it's called "drawing the top card of your deck every turn".

I wanted Victoria to be "RELIABLE". Yes, she hurts herself, yes, she doesn't help others other than by destroying stuff and yes, it costs, but damnit, if I want effects, she gives them to me (before anyone mentions- yes, I do realize her innate power is play the top card, but as I stated in the first post- I stop using it once I get something else).
The idea of effects from dicarded cards is neat, but not here.

Sure, you can discard cards the other way, but by that point the effects are just not worth it.

Quote:
Squeeze
Ongoing
When a Water card is discarded, Victoria deals all targets next to Constrict cards 2 melee damage each.

To do it, you need:
1. This card in play.
2. At least 1 Constrict in play.
3. Discard Water.

That's an awful lot of work for just 2 melee damage, especially for a character that was designed to be dealing damage. It could snowball, sure, but if you're able to put all of this, along with more than 1 Constrict at the same time it means that villain is not doing a good job anyway. At that point it's just winning more.

Quote:
Rip Apart
One-Shot
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. For each Water card revealed, you may destroy an Ongoing or environment card. Discard the revealed cards.

This is potentialy the most frustrating card in existance. What if I don't reveal any Water cards? Not only I get no effect that I probably desperately need, but I'm losing 4 cards and getting no Water bonus from them, but since they're non-Water they're probably a lot more useful in play than in trash anyway.
Alternatively, I reveal 3 or 4 Water and boom, the board is clean, no soap needed. Again, too much chance.

Quote:
Rose Has Thorns
Ongoing
Whenever Victoria is dealt damage by another target, Victoria deals that target 1 melee damage.

That's just the lame version of Combat Stance or Flame Barrier. My version, posted above, benefits from Toxic spike for potential 2 x 1 damage, with 2 x 2 if she's using Mood Swing, at the cost of paying HP for both of those cards when first played. Alone, this is trash, not worth the play. The only way to increase it, is to use Toxic Spike as a power, speaking of which...

Quote:
Toxic Spike
Ongoing
Power: Until the start of your next turn, the first time Victoria deals melee damage to each target, she also deals that target 1 toxic damage.

I have to pay a power to even use that, meaning I won't be able to use it on my turn, unless there's some effect that lets me use it, or when someone hits themselves on the thorns. This card is only ever useful if some other effects forces you to discard cards, at which point it's not a viable strategy, but a gimmick you need to be lucky enough to even use and if you do, the effects are underwhelming.

---

In other words, while I do admit that my idea needs a lot of work, rework and possibly even a complete revamp, I absolutely cannot take your advice on it for reasons I stated above. I understand you didn't put as much thought into it as I did to mine (I made the first version way before I finished Turbulence), but still- no. Just no. Sorry but no.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Garrett

Texas
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Those are two very different versions of the character, I haven't played the 2nd version just yet. What did everyone else think of these? Any middle ground to fuse the two ideas or does this one seem to be a 'this or that' build?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maciej Stępiński
Poland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm afraid I'll have to scrap most of what I got and start fresh. If there's anyone out there who wants to join in and brainstorm, this is your chance. I'm fresh out of ideas.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Timothy 'Peachy' Devery
United States
Peoria
Illinois
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Having still never read the comic (I can't open them at work, and I'm never not at work) I might be completely off base with her character, but one of my initial thoughts on Victoria played a bit with her moods. Sort of like Super Princess Peach or The Naturalist or even Tira from Soul Calibur, every card in her deck would be tied to one Mood (Rage, Joy, Depression, etc) and many cards would be altered based on her current Mood. Rage tends toward dealing extra damage or widening the berth of her attacks, Depression keeps her isolated, defensive, and Joy might be a middle-ground or add perks like destruction or HP recovery.

Base Power (Mood Swing): Reveal the top card of Victoria's deck. Until the end of her next turn, Victoria gains the benefit of that Mood.

Most cards thought of would still work as intended, with extra riders. Add in a couple cards that can immediately shift her mood and let her play a card for such a benefit and she'd have a mechanic that can lend itself to a high level of versatility without much retribution.

I also thought of her having cards that remained out as Ongoings or such much like your original idea, or Akash Bhuta's limbs. She can create an Overgrowth: Ongoing, Rage. Place next to a target. At the end of your turn, deal deal 2 Melee damage to this target. If Enraged, increase damage dealt by this card by 2. If Joyous, convert the damage to healing instead.

Bark Skin: Ongoing, Depressed. If Depressed, reduce damage dealt to Victoria by 1. If Enraged, increase all Melee damage dealt by Victoria by 1.

Not every card would need multiple Mood triggers, as it can get admittedly wordy. This allows her to be able to do many things with one card, just not all at once. Just a few random thoughts off the top of my head.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dennison Milenkaya
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
That actually does sound like an interesting idea for a hero deck, much as Jet's proposed deck, above. But it also doesn't have anything to do with the heroine from the comic. Granted, you haven't read it, but her powers aren't tied at all to her mood; they're completely dependent upon her ability to absorb water.

She seemed to have some trouble relating to other people in the comic but I'd speculate that was either due to her back-story or because she behaves like a plant and doesn't really "get" how mammals think. I mean, if your powers were based on flora and all around you, you saw people keeping puppies, PETA protecting the whales, and valuing the lives of other people above all, but plants were thought of as building materials and food, and the destruction of them wasn't even considered when striving to rescue other living things, you might develop some resentment to the other heroes and the populace you are meant to protect. And, of course, you also know that it is you who is different, so you can't really blame them, either.

But that's also not exactly in the comic. All we see is that her teammates are frequently not very nice to her and she vocalizes some bitter retort before storming off. It is too early to say how things reached this point and I'd wager it has something to do with her being in love with one of the villains, but this doesn't put her on any more of an emotional level than any other character in the comic, including the supporting cast.

Turbulence is motivated to join the team by lust.
Gravnos is constantly trying to avoid talking to his girlfriend about their relationship and was frustrated at a Rubik's cube early on.
Haku flies off the handle when Flutter is endangered.
Flutter seems to be completely consumed with emotion, behaving much like a child and not at all rational.
Rachel is flirtatious with Turbulence and annoyed at Gravnos' passiveness.
The officer Carmichael really hates metas, either because one recently publicly embarrassed him, because they are encroaching on his job, or both.

The fact that Victoria has some emotions driving her makes her more like the rest instead of different because of it. There's really no reason to think that her powers are based on her mood or that any card calling out her emotional state belongs in her deck any more than they belong in Tachyon's.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Garrett

Texas
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Great analysis Dennison, you're spot on. It has a lot to do with her back story (She actually HATES plants...more on that in issue 7 to come!) and it's tied to her back story and the guy she's in love with that she shouldn't be. I think you've given a great view of Victoria and I look forward to play testing your version, so we can find the best solution to this unique hero.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maciej Stępiński
Poland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I added the Mood Swing card in for a possible synergy with her self-hurting skills, but then I realized it was flawed and so I'm here. I still like the idea, maybe for a different hero or for something else she can do.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Timothy 'Peachy' Devery
United States
Peoria
Illinois
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
And this is why it's so difficult to craft a character deck with nothing known about said character but a blurb on the main page. These guys are much deeper than two or three sentences can provide! I'll try and sort through the reading this weekend, so I can try and help with at least a little background. Flat's speculation paragraph sounds a lot like Poison Ivy (just not so extreme). Anywho, we'll see what we can do!

So is there a consensus on Victoria needing some sort of Water flavour? Again, based solely on the mini descriptor, all I know of her is her need for water to fuel her power and her fits of emotion. And that her hair is green.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maciej Stępiński
Poland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Let's just say that her big moment of power came with sudden contact with tons of water. And now I wish we could somehow tie it with Leaing Room from Atlatis, but that would be pushing it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Garrett

Texas
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
To clarify her story a little, and the plant/water tie in (Spoilers for unreleased issue 7 !)

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Victoria was an olympic level swimmer, just fantastic at it. When her father's health was wavering, her mom needed her to come home and work at their family floral shop, which she hated. Her passion for swimming became mangled with her passionate hatred for swimming. The two became inseparable and now she can't swim and can instead turn her body into plants, her hatred. If she were to jump into a swimming pool she'd basically turn into a monstrosity of a tree....not that I'm planning on that to happen at some point or anything....Okay, I am.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maciej Stępiński
Poland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ChrisGarrett wrote:
To clarify her story a little, and the plant/water tie in (Spoilers for unreleased issue 7 !)

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Victoria was an olympic level swimmer, just fantastic at it. When her father's health was wavering, her mom needed her to come home and work at their family floral shop, which she hated. Her passion for swimming became mangled with her passionate hatred for swimming. The two became inseparable and now she can't swim and can instead turn her body into plants, her hatred. If she were to jump into a swimming pool she'd basically turn into a monstrosity of a tree....not that I'm planning on that to happen at some point or anything....Okay, I am.

That's the kind of information we can work with.

(spoiler ahoy, there's no point in hiding them anymore)

So contact with water turns her into plants, as in- she can't just NOT become a plant? That changes things, a lot- I used to think she's fueled by it, as in "the more plants she makes -> the more she dehydrates". That could be translated into "whenever x happens -> y happens as well", where x is getting hydrated (so not that far from Dennisons version... whoops).

Now I'm thinking more of a line of offensive Argent Adept, with various ongoings that have an effect whenever she fuels it, while having an innate power that says "Activate 1 plant card", with bunch of one-shots that activate more at the same time.

The effects would include stuff we saw in comic and stuff I tried to recreate:
-vine hair
-constricting and tossing stuff around
-using environment as weapons/projectiles
-bark skin (maybe instead of flat reduction, make it a target that redirects damage from her?)
-thorns

Or at least, how do we make it more creative than "Offensive Argent"? Come on, brainstorm time!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Timothy 'Peachy' Devery
United States
Peoria
Illinois
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I really like the idea of Victoria being able to feel pain upon the destruction of her plants, as they are actually parts of her. It lends itself well to her being able to do so much but there being a cost. Possibly a parallel to The Argent Adept being able to do everything by having such a low HP pool and few ways of reducing or ridding himself of the Lowest HP mark. How to keep it fair and not instantly wreck her through a table wipe? They could have HP as targets themselves and/or a cost upon destruction, or much like Scholar's forms, and upkeep?

Having a bit of recklessness to her should also be a bit of a fit (such as putting cards into play from her deck directly) seeing as she can't control her ability to change form into plant when blasted with water. Side Note: What happens if and when she fights Six Shooter (comic-verse) and he hits her with his usually painless water gun? Side Note 2: Can she change back within her own will?

So...a battlefield controller/brawler? Being able to suppress enemy threats through constriction and underbrush, Protection with bark, ongoing damage through her plant-like limbs for as long as she wishes/is able? Could be doable.

The flower on her head could be her sole Equipment card if she wants one. It could play with the Mood Ring concept through a single Power: Destroy any number of Plant cards. Redirect any damage Victoria would take this way to another target. (Assuming her plants cause her damage upon their destruction, taking the view that if her Vine-like Hair is chopped off, it would hurt, etc. There's frankly little reason this couldn't be a one-shot beyond the want to have it a recurring option and card variety.)

I tend to brainstorm in this flow of consciousness way, so I apologize for run-ons and/or fragments as I talk this out in my head...in public.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Garrett

Texas
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Blossercubbles wrote:

Having a bit of recklessness to her should also be a bit of a fit (such as putting cards into play from her deck directly) seeing as she can't control her ability to change form into plant when blasted with water. Side Note: What happens if and when she fights Six Shooter (comic-verse) and he hits her with his usually painless water gun? Side Note 2: Can she change back within her own will?


We could give her an ongoing card called 'Absorb' and while it's active, anytime she takes water damage, she instead gets to play the top card of her deck?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maciej Stępiński
Poland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There is no water damage in this game
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Timothy 'Peachy' Devery
United States
Peoria
Illinois
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Water = Ice in my universe. It's something that would have to be considered as the most thematic fit.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dennison Milenkaya
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Turns out, there's no ice damage in the game, either.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Timothy 'Peachy' Devery
United States
Peoria
Illinois
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ice, Cold, Water, what's the difference? I never remember Cold being called Cold in this game, pretty much ever. It's my most fatal of flaws, barring all the other ones.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Garrett

Texas
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Blossercubbles wrote:
Ice, Cold, Water, what's the difference? I never remember Cold being called Cold in this game, pretty much ever. It's my most fatal of flaws, barring all the other ones.


Cold is definitely the way to go. I'm working on making the cards as they currently are into print/play so we can find out what's missing from this deck easier.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dennison Milenkaya
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
It isn't exactly at its perfect rendition yet, but since you are trying to hurry things along, I posted my playable version of Victoria here: Victoria

It involves the suggestions that I had above. Since Jett said he's scrapping his version, perhaps you'll like mine.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.