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Twilight Imperium (Third Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Sabotage rss

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Bruce X
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If someone plays an Action card "as an action" and it is cancelled by Sabotage, do they get to do another action or do they simply miss that turn?
 
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Scott Lewis
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If a card is sabotaged, it is considered never to have been played. Thus, if a "play as an action" card is played and sabotaged, the player must do something else instead.
 
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Rob Leveille
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I do not believe that playing an action card constitutes your turn. They are played in conjunction with an action you have already chosen. The four choices for your turn are Strategic Action, Tactical Action, Transfer Action and Pass. These actions can not be cancelled. If you play an Action card within one of these actions and it is Sabotaged, only the Action card is sabotaged, not the chosen 'action' for the turn. If I am performing a Tactical action, I am still performing it even if you sabotage a card I chose to play.

It gets confusing because both items are named Action.

I hope that helps.
 
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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Phelonius wrote:
I do not believe that playing an action card constitutes your turn.

The "as an action" cards do. See p. 23, left column, under "Play as an Action": "This Action Card must be played by its owner during the Action Phase instead of taking a regular action." (emphasis theirs)

As far as whether that still counts as your action, the Sabotage card says it cancels the effect of the other card, and there's nothing on the card or in the "Sabotage action card" section of the rules saying that the victim then gets to choose a different action. My feeling is that the card you played still counts as your action.
 
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Mikael Ölmestig
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According to the FAQ it says the following:
(1.2) Q: Is an Action card that has been sabotaged considered
played?
No.
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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OK, that FAQ answer seems pretty goofy, but I guess I can believe it was intended to mean that you get to change your mind about playing a card after being sabotaged.

Ha ha ha, imagine people actually trying to use the rules as written.
Player 1: OK, for my action, I'm going to play a card. Is anyone else playing a card?
Player 2: I am.
Others: No.
Player 1: OK, my card is "Voluntary Annexation," and--
Player 3: Sabotage! SUCK IT!
Player 1: Oh. OK, then I'm going to take a Tactical Action--
Others: No way, dude, you said you were playing a card. We're waiting!
(Argument over whether or not you actually have to play a card after announcing it)
Player 1: OK. So my Tactical Action--
Player 2: Wait, what about my card? It's--
Others: Dude, nobody's playing cards now. What's wrong with you!
Player 2: After he announced he was playing a card, I announced too, and we revealed simultaneously...
Player 1: I don't even have any cards. As you can see, I'm taking a Tactical Action.
 
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Roland Wood
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We have always played it that if an action card is a "play as an action" type of card and it gets sabotaged, your turn is over. Kuhrusty's funny dialogue says it all.

From a strategic standpoint many times you are trying to delay doing a strategic action for as long as possible. I would be bummed if an action card got cancelled but I would rarely want to then do a different action in its place. I would be happy to wait until it came back around to me.
 
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Jim Patching
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I definitely agree that if your card gets sabotaged your turn should be over. That's how we always play it.
 
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Christian Marcussen
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I'm pretty sure your turn is not over. I think the rules use a great deal of effort to explain how the card is considered as if it was not played. Hence the player who played the card, and had it cancelled has actually not performed an action.

But its an interesting question, and I guess I could be wrong.
 
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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marqzen wrote:
I think the rules use a great deal of effort to explain how the card is considered as if it was not played.

Where are you seeing this? (I'm just looking under "The Action Cards" on p. 22-23, but I don't see it there.)
 
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Christian Marcussen
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I'm not sitting with the rules now - but thats atleast how I came to understand them, and how we have played it. But as I said - I could very well be wrong. And reading the different arguments for and against has me doubting my own understanding. I think you would be best off trying to get an official answer og the FFG forum.

Anyway I just reckon that the rule writers would simply say that the Sabotage cancels the effect of the other card. Why spend time deining it as "it is considered never played" etc. Seems like a round about way of stating something pretty simple. I guess thats why I understand it the way I do.
 
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Scott Lewis
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Personally, I think the FAQ is the part that makes it clear. If the card is not considered to have been played, the only real reason that matters is for "play as an action" cards.

If it's sabotaged, you aren't considered to have played it. Thus, you didn't play it as an action. Thus, no action.

Even if you declared you were playing cards, the act of declaring such is not your action - the card itself was. And if the card itself was never considered played, then you never actually took an action.

IE, you could say "I'm playing a card", then play one that doesn't require an action, and then take a Tactical action. Thus, while I see where kuhrusty is coming from, I don't necessarily think it's an accurate portrayal of the scheme of things.

(In the example dialog, I don't see what would have prevented Player 2 from playing a card, if he was allowed to play it at that time; The Active Player isn't the only one that is can play cards. Thus, even if Player 1's card was cancelled, Player 2 could still play his. He just announces he wants to.

I hope this makes sense. Basically, my point is, you haven't taken your action by playing a card unless the card is actually played. The FAQ clarifies that such cards, when sabotaged, are NOT considered "played" - thus, no action was consumed to play them. Otherwise, I don't see what the purpose of the FAQ question would have been.
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Ryan W
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While having always played by the rule that a sabotaged action card still counts as an action, I must admit that these two lines from FAQ 1.2 make it sound otherwise:

Q: Do “play as an action” cards replace my action for that turn?
Yes, you receive one action per turn, always. Thus, playing such a card counts as your action for that turn.

(1.2) Q: Is an Action card that has been sabotaged considered played?
No.

Since it clearly says that "playing" a card counts as an action, and a sabotaged card is not "played", I think the original poster has a valid point. Sabotaged action cards go into the discard, and the player must take some other action. I can't say I'm happy about that, but the rules seem pretty clear. We'll probably have to get clarification off the FFG forums.

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Ryan W
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Here's what they are saying over at FFG. Seems like Sabotage will cause the player playing the action card to take another action this turn.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=...
 
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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Well... I'm not sure those questions go together; they weren't even added in the same revision!

My guess is that the "No" FAQ answer is intended to cover stuff like playing Flank Speed on a fleet, having it Sabotaged, and then attempting to play a second Flank Speed on the fleet.

I think if they were intending to answer--or had even considered--the "do you get to choose a different action" question, they would have just put that question clearly in the FAQ, rather than have people work through the logic of simultaneously revealing cards which may or may not have been played.
 
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Scott Lewis
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kuhrusty wrote:
I think if they were intending to answer--or had even considered--the "do you get to choose a different action" question, they would have just put that question clearly in the FAQ, rather than have people work through the logic of simultaneously revealing cards which may or may not have been played.

Well, I disagree there. "Play as an action" cards only take an action if they are played; since the FAQ says they are considered NOT played, there was no action taken, since it has to be played for the action to take effect.

Hopefully, though, it will be added to the next FAQ which Corey is working on, because I do agree further clarification would be useful
 
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