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Subject: Nestor games and crappy games rss

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Abbes Kamel
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When you produce more than 150 abstract games then for sure you will have a high percentage of crappy games.
Nestor is not publisher.
He is a gambler.
His strategy : publish lot of games then you will have at least the game designer published by Nestor as "fans". So you will create some buzz. And if by chance one of those 150 games succeed luckily then you will win enough to absorbe all of your loss.
Lot of Nestor games are really crappy.
Who is going to buy dumb games like many of them?
 
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Joe
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Dude. Why start an account just to be this negative? Lot's of publishers put out mostly crap. Z-Man? Rio Grande? Mayfair? They're all just gambling, hoping to put out the next euro hit. Hell, even movie studios operate this way. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Problem solved.
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Abbes Kamel
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Is it wrong to be negative?
If anyone has to be positive then no debate no talks.
 
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Russell Martin
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Ninety percent of everything is crap.* ---Ted Sturgeon


Spoiler (click to reveal)
*Includes posts on BGG.
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Richard
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Kamel63 wrote:
Is it wrong to be negative?


Not if you have a point. Are you just trying to start an argument or trying to discover some knowledge?
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christian freeling
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jheaney wrote:
Dude. Why start an account just to be this negative? Lot's of publishers put out mostly crap. Z-Man? Rio Grande? Mayfair? They're all just gambling, hoping to put out the next euro hit. Hell, even movie studios operate this way. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Problem solved.

I can see no problem in the first place. Yet there seems to be a peculiar notion that making games that can be played using generic material is somehow suspect, as opposed to trying to get a game published. For the latter, generic material is of course a no go, so these inventors do not implement their games freely, with only the best possible game in mind, but instead they have an agenda, which somehow seems to make them more trustworthy. Mundus vult decipi.
 
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Abbes Kamel
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craw-daddy wrote:
Ninety percent of everything is crap.* ---Ted Sturgeon


Spoiler (click to reveal)
*Includes posts on BGG.


Untrue.
Some litterature publishers do not publish 90% of crap writings.
If you publish any game without respecting high quality games you will finish homeless.
 
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Abbes Kamel
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How many of the 150 games published by Nestor a non dumb guy will buy?
 
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There must have been a moment at the beginning, where we could have said no. Somehow we missed it. Well, we'll know better next time.
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Kamel63 wrote:
When you produce more than 150 abstract games then for sure you will have a high percentage of crappy games.
Nestor is not publisher.
He is a gambler.
His strategy : publish lot of games then you will have at least the game designer published by Nestor as "fans". So you will create some buzz. And if by chance one of those 150 games succeed luckily then you will win enough to absorbe all of your loss.
Lot of Nestor games are really crappy.
Who is going to buy dumb games like many of them?


Replace "crappy" with "good" and "succeed" with "blockbuster" and you might have a point. I think all publishers do that, there's no way to tell which game will "click". Jay Tummelson at Rio Grande Games had no idea that Dominion would become a runaway hit and win the SdJ. That doesn't mean he thought it was crappy, or thinks any of the others he publishes are crappy. Some snowball, others don't.

I do know some of the Nestor games are classics, like ConHex, which is one of the best abstract games I've played.
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Abbes Kamel
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Ok. I see now : all the Nestor games are excellent.
That is what you want to hear?
No debate then.
All is wonderful in the kingdom! there are no slaves no poors.

 
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Mike Jones
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Christian K
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I am a bif fan of nestors games. I really like that someone is willing to publish less popular abstract so that you can get a fairly nice set of a game you really like.


Actually you seem like the one who is unwilling to debate here. The only thing you have posted is "nestor sucks" and "why noone willing to debate you all stupid". Come with a post with some substance and you might get a good debate going
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Sam I am
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Try explain why you think they are crap first. The people can argue whether that aspect is or isn't crap. A blanket crapplication of crapiness isn't worth a crap to discuss.


I did notice you've only been on the site 10 days and this is your first thread...
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Mike Fogus
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rcbevco wrote:
I did notice you've only been on the site 10 days and this is your first thread...


After this sad display we're unlikely to see any Mo.

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One thing to note about Nestor, is that he has kind of a unique "print-on-demand" system where he has less overhead, so he can put out more games than typical publishers. In that regard, he's a little similar to Victory Point Games, although his components are a lot less complicated since it's abstract instead of war/strategy.

Due to the economics of scale, on an individual level to buy a game is unfortunately a little pricey (also similar to VPG), but I'm intrigued by the diversity of games he puts out, and I have a wishlist of games I'd like to buy when budget allows.

But back to the point, I'm not sure the OP has considered the fact that it's print-on-demand with low overhead that allows for a large catalog.

If you're wanting to debate how "crappy" a game is, come up with specific games, I will defend ConHex and Chess any day of the week, let's debate! devil
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Russ Williams
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jheaney wrote:
Dude. Why start an account just to be this negative?

Perhaps his previous account is suspended.
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Ryan Powers
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fogus wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
I did notice you've only been on the site 10 days and this is your first thread...


After this sad display we're unlikely to see any Mo.



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Severus Snape
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Kamel63 wrote:
Is it wrong to be negative?
If anyone has to be positive then no debate no talks.


You are most certainly allowed to exercise your right to freedom of expression. Perhaps it is the manner in which you state your viewpoint that is the problem; but there are examples of Geeks who speak their minds with less tact at times, I among them.

Everyone is a "new" user at some point on the Geek; it would help your position if you were "established," but you likely know this.

Please speak your mind, but be ready for those who say different because they think different.

goo
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Abbes Kamel
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You did not change your behaviour as "group".
First denial. No you do not have the right to speak negatively.
Second a newbie has no right to start a post negatively.
Finaly you are asking me to say which game is crappy one.
Unfortunately the right reaction was the last one.
If you think that I`m going to criticize game by game you are going to wait until the Apocalypse.
My goal is not to bash Nestor.
Nestor is doing good job by promoting abstract games.
But by making dumb guys game designers I think it is the wrong direction to take.
I will come back with deep comments at least on some Nestor games.
Any abstact game need some requirements to be published.
If not balanced no need to publish it.
If highly flawed no need to publish it.
If a replayability is very low which the case of many of those games no need to publish it.
And so on.
 
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Joe Joyce
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Kamel63 wrote:
You did not change your behaviour as "group".
First denial. No you do not have the right to speak negatively.
Second a newbie has no right to start a post negatively.
Finaly you are asking me to say which game is crappy one.
Unfortunately the right reaction was the last one.
If you think that I`m going to criticize game by game you are going to wait until the Apocalypse.
My goal is not to bash Nestor.
Nestor is doing good job by promoting abstract games.
But by making dumb guys game designers I think it is the wrong direction to take.
I will come back with deep comments at least on some Nestor games.
Any abstact game need some requirements to be published.
If not balanced no need to publish it.
If highly flawed no need to publish it.
If a replayability is very low which the case of many of those games no need to publish it.
And so on.

Let me take a crack at this, since I'm a totally unknown abstracts designer except in the very specialized and very small world of chess variants. I think most of the games I've designed are good. Some I think are better than good. And I have designed one utterly outstanding game that nobody likes because it falls into the hybrid category of chess variant wargame. The chess players don't like it because it's a variant. The variantists don't like it because it's too hard for them, being a wargame. And the wargamers don't like it because it's chess, and not a "true wargame". Yet if somebody offered to publish it for me, I'd leap at the chance. And get nothing but negative reviews. But it is far and away my best design/development work, and an excellent game on its own terms.

Consider how game designers think. Someone who puts effort into designing a game is generally proud of it and wants to show it off. Each designer expects others to be as enthusiastic about the game as the designer is, at least until they've been around enough to know better. Suggesting Nestor has no standards is wrong, because he has shied away from my designs, knowing chess variants don't sell. !@#$%^&*! Those sorts of reactions truly irritate me, and I decided that I would design a "popular" game. I took a game I designed 40 years ago, updated it over the past year, brought it to Spielbany - a small game designer workshop which provides playtesting and good feedback to designers - 3 times in the past year, each time improving the game. Two weekends ago I took the game, now titled Shoot 'Em Up Spaceships, to Unpub 5 in Baltimore MD, where it did very well, and convinced me it has commercial potential (having it constantly played for the entire weekend, 97% of the people liking it, 4 out of 5 ratings in every aspect, and people asking when it would be available helped me decide that.) Nestor won't pick that game up either, because it is not an abstract.
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Virginia Milne
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You talk about all the "crappy Nestor games".

For anyone who does not know much about Nestor Games, they may say that is likely to be 50 percent true that they are crappy and 50 percent false.

It is quite a good device for attacking something.

I could say that you are "-----". The starting point for a disinterested
observer is that there is 50% likely that you are "-----". The true situation maybe that they should start at wondering whether there is a 1% chance of you being "-----". Or if "-----" is a good thing, maybe a 95% chance.

This is quite a good trick, and most of the people here, have a sense that that they are seeing a cheap smear. That is why they are irritated by your post. It has nothing to do with self censorship.

They would be much more impressed by you if you started an interesting post full of substance.

For example, out of the 100 Nester Games, here are 10 games that I have had time to look at in detail, and I decided that I cannot understand why on earth anybody would be interested in playing any of them more than one time.

Then you could give your series of negative mini reviews of those ten games.

Game players would probably love to jump into the argument and show that you could not be further wrong about game "X", or they could say, that it is not great, but it is still a better use of time than watching another hour of sports or a soap opera on tv.

If you are lazy and resort to the 50% smear trick, expect people to not respect your motives and to think that you are just having a thrill "kicking over sand castles".

Respect your audience, and do some work and preparation, and give a reasoned and structured criticism of something, and you may find that your audience will respect you in return. They may not agree with you, but could find it a stimulating debate about games. Your original post has no details, is not stimulating, just irritating, and considered by many to be of little consequence.
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Kevin
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Basically no one is forcing you to by from Nestor. If you think what he publishes is so bad then ignore his offerings.
Frankly I have a number of Nestor games. I read the rules he posts online, come here to BGG to see if there are any reviews (many have little or no reviews of substance), then decide what looks interesting to me as a possible good game. So far, I've been pleased with the games I got. They are made of nice materials, all with the nice little tubular zipper bag...well done frankly.
I think Nestor is a great service to designers looking to get their game out there, and he has provided us with mostly good games. Sure there are some bad ones but I'm not sure he's guaranteeing every game he publishes will be a hit. Frankly, I'm glad I bought from him and I always look to see what he's got new. Most likely, I'll buy from him again. Let the guy be unless you want to explain just what it is that set you off in the first place. My rant is over...thanks for reading it. Life is too short, these are games after all, so can it be that bad? Game on...!
(I think I'll click over to his site right now and see what's new...)
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Ryan Powers
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bentlarsen wrote:

Everyone is a "new" user at some point on the Geek; it would help your position if you were "established," but you likely know this.


Pretty sure his position is well established. I guess I could be wrong, but I hope there can't be Mo than one person who writes like that and has a major axe to grind with Nestor.
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Virginia Milne
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I have already happily purchased:-
abande
adaptoid
hippos & crocodiles
limit
yavalath
taiji

I found none of those to be rubbish. I do not regret buying any of them.

More Nestor games in my sights:l-
Limit (new format)
cannon
margo
conhex
hex14
morrelli
shibimi
symbol

Games up for purchase in the near future:-
Limit
shibumi
symbol

If I had a bigger purse, I would buy more games sooner.
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Russ Williams
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Kamel63 wrote:
You did not change your behaviour as "group".

That's OK; you did not change your behavior as an "individual".
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