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Subject: Too luck driven? rss

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T.C. Reid
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I have heard that there is a pretty strong consensus out there that this game is too luck driven. Any thoughts on this?
 
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Jack Francisco
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Any game with card draw is going to have some element of luck. It's an excellent game, tho. Personally, I can't stand games that you can plan out every single move in advance. Blech.
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Thebrewgeek
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This game has some luck as all card games do, but I would say there is ALLOT of strategy in this game. I would say this game is more like 85% strategy and 15% luck. Each card has I believe 6 different options that you can choose from when played. In fact I would say this game is prone to AP if you are not used to Medium weight Euro games. I also want add that I really like this game and one that will probably stay in my collection for years to come.
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Josh Chen
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I like to call these type of games Luck Management games.
You need to roll with what you draw, so it is a fairly tactical game especially played with 2-players.
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Marlene Thornstrom
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I think it's too luck-driven in the sense that I don't feel I have enough opportunities to mitigate the luck of the draw. I prefer something like Imperial Settlers which gives me more opportunities to do something with a bad hand. And I think La Isla feels a little less prone to having someone who draws great cards do much better than everyone else.

It is still fun though as long as you're not too hung up on the idea that the person who played the best should win.
 
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You have to leave many options open. It is a bit similar like the strategy in Keltis: the dice game. You have a lot randomness but when you leave enough options open, you will get to do something good for sure.
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Kathy Sheets
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I think that people who averse to 'too much luck' in games will definitely have a problem with Bruges. I love this game. The only time I felt at the absolute mercy of the cards was the first couple of times I played, and that's when it clicked for me...how to keep my options open as Roadhouse says.

It's lots of fun, but, like I said, might not be your cup of tea.
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Tomello Visello
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I was invited to a first-time play, being told it was a board game. My experience now has me calling it a card game instead. (a different level of luck, and not my type)

 
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Jeff Kayati
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rabidosa wrote:
I have heard that there is a pretty strong consensus out there that this game is too luck driven. Any thoughts on this?


They don't know what they are talking about. Skill in this game is much more important than luck.
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T.C. Reid
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Thanks for the replies! I have been looking at purchasing Bruges after playing and enjoying Imperial Settlers and Deus. I just wish this game was more easily available for purchase!
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Jack Francisco
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And get the expansion as well while you're at it. Worth the additional investment.
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Alexander Simbürger
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senorcoo wrote:
And get the expansion as well while you're at it. Worth the additional investment.



+1 i have now more than 40 plays under my belt and the last 8 were with the expansion. I would never play without it anymore. It adds a lot to the base game and makes it even more enjoyable!
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Robyn Z
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I just watched some one in three rounds pick up 10 purple cards and two red cards. The purple dice rolls were a 1, 2, 2 those three rounds. They had no chance at all. It was disheartening to see all the joy sucked out of room. They got a flood, fire, and plague during those rounds because they were unable to discard to prevent them.
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Panu Trivej
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How is this compared to other card games such as Season and Elysium?
 
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Jason
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shallowz wrote:
I just watched some one in three rounds pick up 10 purple cards and two red cards. The purple dice rolls were a 1, 2, 2 those three rounds. They had no chance at all. It was disheartening to see all the joy sucked out of room. They got a flood, fire, and plague during those rounds because they were unable to discard to prevent them.


In roughly thirty plays of the base game, I have experienced that level of frustration maybe once.
 
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Jake Blomquist
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rabidosa wrote:
Thanks for the replies! I have been looking at purchasing Bruges after playing and enjoying Imperial Settlers and Deus. I just wish this game was more easily available for purchase!


I'd say if you were ok with Deus, this is about the same in the luck department. Both games had the same problem for me, that you can't even guarantee a certain color of card.

A lot of people want to argue that it's a mostly tactical game, but I don't buy that argument when you can spend a bunch of actions setting something up that could pay off later in the game but only actually will if you see the right color of cards. Of course a card game is going to have randomness in which cards you see and good play should be adaptive, but in both games there seemed to be too big an element of chaining things together, and your ability to continue to do whatever you've set up is generally dependent on seeing cards of particular colors.

In both games there are ways to mitigate this. In Deus you can throw your hand away for a particular benefit depending on the color of the top card you throw away, plus you draw back up. There is still the slight problem here that you could be staring at a hand of cards whose colors' discard actions don't really help you and you could then draw back up into an equally bad hand. In Bruges there are cards who when activated let you treat any other card you use as whatever color you want. These seem almost necessary to even out the color luck but the problem is that you might just never see one. I'm not sure which is the better mechanism for evening out luck.

shallowz wrote:
I just watched some one in three rounds pick up 10 purple cards and two red cards. The purple dice rolls were a 1, 2, 2 those three rounds. They had no chance at all. It was disheartening to see all the joy sucked out of room. They got a flood, fire, and plague during those rounds because they were unable to discard to prevent them.


Yeah, this is exactly my point. In a recent game a friend set up a killer combo but it required blue guys to activate, and he didn't see a single blue card for the entire second half of the game.

And your story also illustrates how the two different kinds of randomness (card color and dice) can compound to make the luck way too high.

van jupiter wrote:
How is this compared to other card games such as Season and Elysium?


Seasons is way less random. You draft a bunch of your cards to build your central combo/engine so I never feel nearly as beholden to the draw. Sure, there's the opportunity to draw more cards, and sometimes there can be some swinginess there but the key point is you all get a chance to set up the core of your game at the beginning so you won't get half way through setting up and then realize you'll never see the cards you need.

Elysium I can't say too much. I don't remember it suffering from too much luck, but I do remember thinking it was pretty generic and a little boring so I don't really remember much about it at all.
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mfl134
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shallowz wrote:
I just watched some one in three rounds pick up 10 purple cards and two red cards. The purple dice rolls were a 1, 2, 2 those three rounds. They had no chance at all. It was disheartening to see all the joy sucked out of room. They got a flood, fire, and plague during those rounds because they were unable to discard to prevent them.


Would they have been better off not picking up all the same color cards?
 
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Jake Blomquist
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mfl134 wrote:
shallowz wrote:
I just watched some one in three rounds pick up 10 purple cards and two red cards. The purple dice rolls were a 1, 2, 2 those three rounds. They had no chance at all. It was disheartening to see all the joy sucked out of room. They got a flood, fire, and plague during those rounds because they were unable to discard to prevent them.


Would they have been better off not picking up all the same color cards?


Yeah, that's the point of the story. That there's card luck.
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mfl134
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jblomquist wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
shallowz wrote:
I just watched some one in three rounds pick up 10 purple cards and two red cards. The purple dice rolls were a 1, 2, 2 those three rounds. They had no chance at all. It was disheartening to see all the joy sucked out of room. They got a flood, fire, and plague during those rounds because they were unable to discard to prevent them.


Would they have been better off not picking up all the same color cards?


Yeah, that's the point of the story. That there's card luck.


But you get to choose the color of the cards you draw (at least partially). If I recall correctly, avoiding a 10/2 split of cards is fairly reasonable.
 
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Jake Blomquist
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mfl134 wrote:
jblomquist wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
shallowz wrote:
I just watched some one in three rounds pick up 10 purple cards and two red cards. The purple dice rolls were a 1, 2, 2 those three rounds. They had no chance at all. It was disheartening to see all the joy sucked out of room. They got a flood, fire, and plague during those rounds because they were unable to discard to prevent them.


Would they have been better off not picking up all the same color cards?


Yeah, that's the point of the story. That there's card luck.


But you get to choose the color of the cards you draw (at least partially). If I recall correctly, avoiding a 10/2 split of cards is fairly reasonable.


You have only two options at any point (there are always two decks to draw from). While 10 cards of the same color seems to be a particularly extreme example, it's certainly not impossible. I'm sure it's happened that you've been looking at two cards of the same color, and drew one at random only to reveal another card of the same color. I imagine that was like this but just a bunch of times in a row. Maybe I'm wrong and the person could have chosen other colors but didn't, but I'm assuming no one would put themselves into that position by choice.
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Daniel Kearns
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I never felt inordinate pressure from luck.

Love the game BTW.
 
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mfl134
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jblomquist wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
jblomquist wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
shallowz wrote:
I just watched some one in three rounds pick up 10 purple cards and two red cards. The purple dice rolls were a 1, 2, 2 those three rounds. They had no chance at all. It was disheartening to see all the joy sucked out of room. They got a flood, fire, and plague during those rounds because they were unable to discard to prevent them.


Would they have been better off not picking up all the same color cards?


Yeah, that's the point of the story. That there's card luck.


But you get to choose the color of the cards you draw (at least partially). If I recall correctly, avoiding a 10/2 split of cards is fairly reasonable.


You have only two options at any point (there are always two decks to draw from). While 10 cards of the same color seems to be a particularly extreme example, it's certainly not impossible. I'm sure it's happened that you've been looking at two cards of the same color, and drew one at random only to reveal another card of the same color. I imagine that was like this but just a bunch of times in a row. Maybe I'm wrong and the person could have chosen other colors but didn't, but I'm assuming no one would put themselves into that position by choice.


In my experience, having too much of one color is generally on the fault of the player. Not being able to grab a specific color is generally more luck driven.
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Robyn Z
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but you did experience it.
It takes out all the joy of the game. Bruges is a good game, wish there was ways to fix the luck issue.

oilerfan wrote:
shallowz wrote:
I just watched some one in three rounds pick up 10 purple cards and two red cards. The purple dice rolls were a 1, 2, 2 those three rounds. They had no chance at all. It was disheartening to see all the joy sucked out of room. They got a flood, fire, and plague during those rounds because they were unable to discard to prevent them.


In roughly thirty plays of the base game, I have experienced that level of frustration maybe once.
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Robyn Z
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mfl134 wrote:
shallowz wrote:
I just watched some one in three rounds pick up 10 purple cards and two red cards. The purple dice rolls were a 1, 2, 2 those three rounds. They had no chance at all. It was disheartening to see all the joy sucked out of room. They got a flood, fire, and plague during those rounds because they were unable to discard to prevent them.


Would they have been better off not picking up all the same color cards?


They had no choice there was only purple and purple to pick from. When they picked up a purple card another purple was below it.
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Jack Francisco
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The complaint of "luck" in games is one that always makes me chuckle for some reason. Considering that most of my favorite games have dice in them, it's one that I rarely have.
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