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Subject: Best Quests to start with? Also, balancing the game with X number of Heroes? rss

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Brian Tanner
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So, after much back and forward in the thread here:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1314146/how-hard-it-get-game...

I've decided to give Myth a go, and have gone all-in by obtaining a Captain level pledge version of the game. This comes with a ton of stuff. I've followed the given "how to start" advice and have printed off the fan-rewrite of the rulebook, the updated 1.3 cards, and have been checking out the Megacon "How to Play" videos.

There is a ton of stuff with this Captain Pledge, and this game has required a lot of "pre-work" to learn the game before even attempting to play ...

I am trying to wrap my head around all the different ways to quest. It has become apparent from reading the forums that there are apparently a lot of quest cards that leave something to be desired in terms of how they are written (lack of details that make quests almost impossible to do, etc).

So, at the moment, I am not to interested with having to make up house rules or big assumptions as to how to complete certain quests, at least not while I am trying to learn the game. So I've come to the forum to ask, what are the "best" quests to do as a new player and in general? What I mean by "best" are quests that are clearly written, or at least well written enough to the point that they don't leave the player wondering what to do or how to play it. What quests / story lines are peoples' favorites to do? Are there recommended "levels" the heroes should be at to do each quest (e.g. a new hero shouldn't attempt quest line X, but quest line Y is good for new heroes).

Another question, and this may be in the rulebook and I've just not reached it yet, but are there any general guidelines for balancing the game for 2 heroes or 4 heroes? Me and my main gaming partner will either be playing 1 hero each or 2 heroes each, it all depends on how hard controlling multiple heroes is (we each control 2 heroes in Galaxy Defenders just fine). I know it is up to the player to decide how many lairs, monsters, hunting packs, etc. to spawn each tile, I'm curious if there are rules of thumb to follow to balance the game (e.g. spawn "X" number of monsters per hero or something).

Thanks!
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Jeremy Steward
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I have introduced the game a few times doing this:

No Rest For the Weary

Act 1:
I recommend before starting to deal out 1 green item per player, then after trading, each playing picks out 1 brown item from the deck.

Skip Act 2

Do Act 3 as written.

Following Act 3, instead of the Harbinger title, all players get a blank title (which allows you to hold an item) as well as a deck modification.

This allows finishing a story in one sitting and gets players invested quicker. (The harbinger title is OP so that is also why I make it blank)

As for chapter quests, I recommend removing the following from the deck (You may not have all of these)
- I like my odds, Get Tactical, A desperate act (These are slaughterfield quests and dont work well with stories)
- Don't Rush Me, I got this thing, A theif in Hand (Don't work well with stories because they require extra tiles)
-See you at Five, Cursed Council (poorly written)

If you get a chapter quest that tells you to spawn 2 lairs, or a miniboss, I recommend redrawing.



I have found the game to be most balanced at 3-4 players. When starting out, i recommend using the minimum number of lairs and you shouldn't be overwhelmed.
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CK Lai
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Or you could download the "Myth Overview and Walkthrough v.1" from the MCG web site and try that.

It actually begins the "Weaver's Need" chapter quest and you can continue on from there. That's how I started.

If you do this, you might also want to re-play this quest using different heroes. I find using the Acolyte in a 2-player game slightly less effective as the Acolyte is excellent for healing and buffing heroes, but not so great in dealing damage. He's great in a 3-hero party. You might want to try various combinations.

That said, I'm sure there are others who are very happy playing the Acolyte in a 2-hero party, so really, YMMV.
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Marcus Taylor
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bktanner wrote:

There is a ton of stuff with this Captain Pledge, and this game has required a lot of "pre-work" to learn the game before even attempting to play ...
I am trying to wrap my head around all the different ways to quest. It has become apparent from reading the forums that there are apparently a lot of quest cards that leave something to be desired in terms of how they are written (lack of details that make quests almost impossible to do, etc).


Yes, this is yet another strike against the game. After having to acquire more minis to play it, downloading lots of errata and watching hours of videos, the game is very vague about what you actually do.

Games like Descent and Shadows of Brimstone have a simple 'starter quest' to help you get stuck in and learn the rules. Nothing about Myth is easy, alas.

Although it gives the vague impression that you are meant to start with the story quests, starting with #1 'No Rest For The Weary' is pretty much impossible. It's brutally difficult because of the special rules - you don't have your full equipment, which nerfs the Archer into near uselessness, and the AP changes in the final two Acts ramp up the difficulty to an insane degree.

I would go with 'free form questing' and a fairly simple Chapter quest like the Weaver or merchant's chest one. Just get to know the rules and how everything works. Unfortunately, you won't get to keep any items, gold, serendipity, etc, so it will feel odd compared to other games.

Last April I wrote a mini-guide for the 'Testing the Waters' quest that is downloadable on the MCG website. Quite a few players pitched in so maybe it will be of some use.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1160220/if-testing-waters-ba...

So yet another learning point for the designers: please include a relatively simple, straightforward beginning quest or starter dungeon that gives new players somewhere to begin and helps teach the rules of the game.
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Judy Krauss
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I also recommend starting with just a chapter quest for your first few plays. Stolen Treasure is a good one to start with, IMHO. Also, you should probably avoid the using the Brigand or the stretch goal heroes until you get used to the rules, because their decks can get somewhat complicated. Also, start with just Grubbers (and maybe Crawlers).
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Brian Tanner
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Hmm thanks for the tips!

Marcus the Ready wrote:

I would go with 'free form questing' and a fairly simple Chapter quest like the Weaver or merchant's chest one. Just get to know the rules and how everything works. Unfortunately, you won't get to keep any items, gold, serendipity, etc, so it will feel odd compared to other games.


- Wait why don't you get to keep your progress? I was under the impression you kept your titles,deck changes, and items if you have a title that allows you to. I kind of thought that was the point of doing quests and everything, to build up your hero?
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MM
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bktanner wrote:
Hmm thanks for the tips!

Marcus the Ready wrote:

I would go with 'free form questing' and a fairly simple Chapter quest like the Weaver or merchant's chest one. Just get to know the rules and how everything works. Unfortunately, you won't get to keep any items, gold, serendipity, etc, so it will feel odd compared to other games.


- Wait why don't you get to keep your progress? I was under the impression you kept your titles,deck changes, and items if you have a title that allows you to. I kind of thought that was the point of doing quests and everything, to build up your hero?


You do. Story quests are the only way, however. Also the treasure bag is constant across all gameplay so you'll gradually become stronger because you're drawing greens/blues.

There is character progression, but it is not what most of us are used to.
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Marcus Taylor
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You only get titles and keep items if you do story quests, by RAW. Or 'manipulate your deck' by adding a card.

Problem is there, the story quests are pretty hard, and even if you succeed, it's a 10+ hour slog.

The only thing that 'free form questing' gives you is amending the treasure bag. There's no real way to 'level up' your character so it has a better chance of doing the story quests. It's a bit of a Catch-22 alas. The game pretty much requires you to do story quests FIRST if you want any kind of advancement, but they're pretty damned hard, involving boss fights and severe handicaps as in No Rest For The Weary.

Myth's perpetual elements are a real disappointment, considering that most similar games (Heroquest, M&M, Shadows of Brimstone, Descent, etc) have better, and much simpler ways to develop a character. For a game that stresses how awesome the heroes are, you're actually going to be stuck with that fireplace poker and pot lid for a long, long time if you go by RAW.

This is something best house-ruled, if you really want to have a sense of progression. Maybe Myth: Journeymen will improve the feeling of progression and improvement, because it's kinda lacking right now.
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Donny Behne
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Played for the firs time in probably nine months last night. We did the first Act out of the Kickstarter story quests and was all very bleh. This game is exactly how I remember it nine months ago. You just can't tell if you're doing well or if the challenge is balanced or if you're execting X, Y, Z properly. I'm officially done. I'd rather have played Imperial Assault for those two hours. Now to find someone to buy my copy...
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That's a shame Donny. Nobody can say you didn't give it a good try.

I'm going to stick around and see what the next KS is, but I can't blame anyone for giving up. The game requires a hell of a lot of effort and the reward isn't always clear. There are a lot of other games that offer a fun experience without anything near the level of effort required for this one.
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MM
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Marcus the Ready wrote:
That's a shame Donny. Nobody can say you didn't give it a good try.

I'm going to stick around and see what the next KS is, but I can't blame anyone for giving up. The game requires a hell of a lot of effort and the reward isn't always clear. There are a lot of other games that offer a fun experience without anything near the level of effort required for this one.


I agree. Hope you stick around or at least check in from time to time, Donny!
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Brian Tanner
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Marcus the Ready wrote:
You only get titles and keep items if you do story quests, by RAW. Or 'manipulate your deck' by adding a card.

Problem is there, the story quests are pretty hard, and even if you succeed, it's a 10+ hour slog.

The only thing that 'free form questing' gives you is amending the treasure bag. There's no real way to 'level up' your character so it has a better chance of doing the story quests. It's a bit of a Catch-22 alas. The game pretty much requires you to do story quests FIRST if you want any kind of advancement, but they're pretty damned hard, involving boss fights and severe handicaps as in No Rest For The Weary.

Myth's perpetual elements are a real disappointment, considering that most similar games (Heroquest, M&M, Shadows of Brimstone, Descent, etc) have better, and much simpler ways to develop a character. For a game that stresses how awesome the heroes are, you're actually going to be stuck with that fireplace poker and pot lid for a long, long time if you go by RAW.

This is something best house-ruled, if you really want to have a sense of progression. Maybe Myth: Journeymen will improve the feeling of progression and improvement, because it's kinda lacking right now.



Hmm I see, 10+ hours in one gaming session? Is it not possible to break up the story quests into "chunks" where you can "save" your progress?

What kind of house rules have folks been using for character progression?
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CK Lai
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bktanner wrote:
Hmm I see, 10+ hours in one gaming session? Is it not possible to break up the story quests into "chunks" where you can "save" your progress?


Yes it is. Most quest are broken up into Chapters or Acts. Just play one at a time. it takes anywhere between 40 mins to about 2 hours each, depending on the tile size chosen. Then put away and continue another time.
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Judy Krauss
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I don't mind the lack of leveling up because I play Myth as the theme suggests:

There are a bunch of heroes sitting around a campfire telling tall tales about past adventures.

So each adventure for me doesn't necessarily lead into another, especially when playing free-form quests, and I don't worry about progressing or "beating the game" -- it's more like episodic role-playing.

Depending on the tall tale I am making up, sometimes I let the heroes take an item or two with them (but this doesn't mean that the item will still be there for the next quest!).

It's like:

"I remember that one time when I lost everything I owned (except some raggedly clothes) gambling, and all I had was a scrounged poker and fireplace lid when the crawlers invaded the town where I was sleeping in the park."

Or:

"I remember finding a really cool [whatever item you want] when I was fighting a band of Grubbers. But the next time I used it, Crawlers overwhelmed me and their boss stole my stuff! I was luckily to escape with my life! But then I stole this fancy item which really came in handy when... "


If any of you have ever read any of Roy Thomas' Conan comic books, you'll understand what I mean. Conan was always trying to steal or capture some great item, and sometimes he succeeded, but often he would start a new story (or even end the current one) hungry, lost, and with almost nothing owned.

I think it's fun to play this way. It gets rid of the need to play the official "story" quests to gain items (or even to exchange cards in your deck, if you want to). You can set up any story idea you want to and just play.


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I don't doubt it's possible it might work for some people, Judy, or that you could play like Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, who were always losing their gear and weapons.

But many people play games for the loot and the sense of progression. Which isn't one of Myth's strong suits. You can play something like Shadows of Brimstone and come away with a sense of development even if you lose.

Especially as you kind of NEED the better stuff to stand a chance at the bosses in the story quests anyway. It makes Myth feel grindy and something of a slog.
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Judy Krauss
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Marcus the Ready wrote:
I don't doubt it's possible it might work for some people, Judy, or that you could play like Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, who were always losing their gear and weapons.

But many people play games for the loot and the sense of progression. Which isn't one of Myth's strong suits. You can play something like Shadows of Brimstone and come away with a sense of development even if you lose.

Especially as you kind of NEED the better stuff to stand a chance at the bosses in the story quests anyway. It makes Myth feel grindy and something of a slog.


I understand that about the story quests, but I feel that the story quests and progression aspects of the game were added later (in fact, I know that the ability to "keep" items was).

If you play the game with the theme in mind (just look at the box cover!) rather than trying to "beat" the game, then it is much more fun, and you can tell any stories you want to by setting them up before playing (without having to worry about what went before. If you want a powerful hero facing nearly insurmountable odds, then you can give your hero a lot of cool stuff and stack her/his deck. If you want to play with a group of shady characters living hand-to-mouth, you can do that, too.

The trick is to not get too caught up in continuity and linear time progression. When telling tall tales, the heroes will pull (and embellish ) things from their memories without regard for sequential order.

So, one adventure may be from a time when the heroes were more established and respected (and had some good equipment and riches), and the next adventure told may be from when they had just met and didn't trust each other or have anything of value.

I agree that playing for loot and a sense of progression is not something that Myth encourages, but that's because it's really not the type of game that Myth is.

BTW, the Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories are a good example, too.
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Donny Behne
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Jude wrote:

If you play the game with the theme in mind (just look at the box cover!) rather than trying to "beat" the game, then it is much more fun, and you can tell any stories you want to by setting them up before playing (without having to worry about what went before.


Except that wasn't really what was sold through the Kickstarter and after. The implication was that we'd get a fully cooperative dungeon crawl with progression. The concept of heroes telling a story around a campfire was predominately sales-speak. Instead, we got a story telling game with minis. That may be more fun for you, but it's the opposite of fun for me and, by the way these forums reacted, I'd wager it's the opposite of fun for many. I'm not going to say most, but the backlash on the level of "sandbox" this game presents was substantial so I'm comfortable with the word "many".
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I'm glad that the game works for you Jude, and for guys like Dan. But it still feels a bit lacking for me, and none of my group will touch it. It's hard to convince them why they should play this over the likes of Descent, M&M or SoB, all of which are easier to learn and offer more fulfilling progression.

As Donny points out, Myth was sold as a dungeon crawler (which it isn't, really). It's essentially a tactical minis game - the 'storytelling' elements are kind of weak because of the way all the Act and Chapter quests clash with each other narratively.

The Story Quests are almost impossible do do without better gear, and you can't do the story quests because you can't get better gear without doing the story quests... feels like a Catch 22 unfortunately.

And it lessens the fun for doing things like 'free questing' because you don't get anything for it beyond possibly amending the treasure bag.

It's shame, because I LOVE many of the concepts, but right now Myth still feels more like a collection of good ideas than a cohesive game. It takes a lot of effort and reading through errata to learn. It requires buying stuff outside the base game just to play it. The storytelling elements are often incoherent. The character progression is terrible. For me, it's always falling between all these elements.

I have some solutions to house rule it so I can make an enjoyable (for me!) solo game out of it, but by RAW, I keep wondering what the designers intended it to be.
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Judy Krauss
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kelann08 wrote:
Jude wrote:

If you play the game with the theme in mind (just look at the box cover!) rather than trying to "beat" the game, then it is much more fun, and you can tell any stories you want to by setting them up before playing (without having to worry about what went before.


Except that wasn't really what was sold through the Kickstarter and after. The implication was that we'd get a fully cooperative dungeon crawl with progression. The concept of heroes telling a story around a campfire was predominately sales-speak. Instead, we got a story telling game with minis. That may be more fun for you, but it's the opposite of fun for me and, by the way these forums reacted, I'd wager it's the opposite of fun for many. I'm not going to say most, but the backlash on the level of "sandbox" this game presents was substantial so I'm comfortable with the word "many".


We did get a fully co-operative dungeon crawler. I disagree that the "telling a story around a campfire" was mostly "sales-speak". IMHO, they were pretty clear that that was the theme of the game from the beginning.

My recollection of the Kickstarter campaign (and I followed it pretty closely because I was just out of the the hospital and couldn't do much), was that backers started lobbying the designers for a way to "keep" items and for other ways to make it more "Diablo-like", and I remember thinking that I hope they didn't change the game too much from what attracted me to it in the first place.

I often wonder if adding these elements to the game is what caused the rulebook and story quests to have such problems in coherency. I do not much care for having to complete story quests to "win" the ability to alter your character (or even the draw bag, although it is a cool idea when playing in continuous time order), and I think that the "progression/advancement" players don't much care for how little the "win" gets them, either.

In any case, I like playing the way I do. I like coming up with situations and setting them up and then seeing how they unfold. I like playing slowly and enjoying the story as I "create" it.

And it looks like the designers are also trying to satisfy those who want structure and character progression/advancement. So maybe we will all be able to play Myth how we want to.
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Judy Krauss
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Marcus the Ready wrote:
I'm glad that the game works for you Jude, and for guys like Dan. But it still feels a bit lacking for me, and none of my group will touch it. It's hard to convince them why they should play this over the likes of Descent, M&M or SoB, all of which are easier to learn and offer more fulfilling progression.

As Donny points out, Myth was sold as a dungeon crawler (which it isn't, really). It's essentially a tactical minis game - the 'storytelling' elements are kind of weak because of the way all the Act and Chapter quests clash with each other narratively.

The Story Quests are almost impossible do do without better gear, and you can't do the story quests because you can't get better gear without doing the story quests... feels like a Catch 22 unfortunately.

And it lessens the fun for doing things like 'free questing' because you don't get anything for it beyond possibly amending the treasure bag.

It's shame, because I LOVE many of the concepts, but right now Myth still feels more like a collection of good ideas than a cohesive game. It takes a lot of effort and reading through errata to learn. It requires buying stuff outside the base game just to play it. The storytelling elements are often incoherent. The character progression is terrible. For me, it's always falling between all these elements.

I have some solutions to house rule it so I can make an enjoyable (for me!) solo game out of it, but by RAW, I keep wondering what the designers intended it to be.


I agree with a lot of what you said, although it really doesn't affect me as much as those who want character leveling and quests joined into long campaigns. As I noted in my post above, I think a lot of the problems with the rules and story quests (and component issues) came from trying to tack things onto the game that weren't originally supposed to be there.

As it is now, I can understand why some players think it is lacking as a progression-based dungeon-crawler. I am luckier with how I play because I can basically just ignore the parts that others are dissatisfied with. Those parts don't really enter into my mode of play since I don't care about keeping items, time/quest continuity, or structured character progression, but only episodic adventures and tactical battles, and I can equip my heroes, alter the decks, populate the tiles, as I see fit for the tall tale I am telling.

Myth does play well solo, especially with how I play, and I think it would play well 2-player co-op with a couple of friends just enjoying creating the stories together and playing them out as adventures.

I know that the designers are working on the second Myth Kickstarter, and maybe everyone will get more of what they want from the game.



EDIT: Which "Dan" are you referring to, Marcus?
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Jude wrote:

I know that the designers are working on the second Myth Kickstarter, and maybe everyone will get more of what they want from the game.
EDIT: Which "Dan" are you referring to, Marcus?


Yes, I hope that the 'Journeyman' KS expands on character progression, because I think that would be satisfying for people like me or Donny. I feel that progression is something a lot of people will expect from this kind of game.


As for 'Dan', it's Dan Gillis (I think). He's a big fan of the game and it seems to work really well for him. He's written a lot of good fanfiction over on Lands of Myth.


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Chinkster wrote:
bktanner wrote:
Hmm I see, 10+ hours in one gaming session? Is it not possible to break up the story quests into "chunks" where you can "save" your progress?


Yes it is. Most quest are broken up into Chapters or Acts. Just play one at a time. it takes anywhere between 40 mins to about 2 hours each, depending on the tile size chosen. Then put away and continue another time.


It's worth pointing out that I've yet to see an Act finish in two hours with my group. Maybe we're all a little easily distracted and socialize as much as we game, but allowing for up to 3 is a safe bet.

As for house ruling progression, the easiest thing to do is allow for a title after 3 Acts, or 3 sessions of free play. The three Acts could be any 3 Act quests, not just a Story. Of course, you can game this if you want, but then you're only gaming yourselves.

Progression is definitely not a strong suit of this game. You won't have a character sheet with a level or XP gained and how it was spent. Descent is much better at that, but of course then you need an Overlord (and yes I know about Forgotten Souls).
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Mike Clover
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VoicelessFaces wrote:
Chinkster wrote:
bktanner wrote:
Hmm I see, 10+ hours in one gaming session? Is it not possible to break up the story quests into "chunks" where you can "save" your progress?


Yes it is. Most quest are broken up into Chapters or Acts. Just play one at a time. it takes anywhere between 40 mins to about 2 hours each, depending on the tile size chosen. Then put away and continue another time.


It's worth pointing out that I've yet to see an Act finish in two hours with my group. Maybe we're all a little easily distracted and socialize as much as we game, but allowing for up to 3 is a safe bet.

As for house ruling progression, the easiest thing to do is allow for a title after 3 Acts, or 3 sessions of free play. The three Acts could be any 3 Act quests, not just a Story. Of course, you can game this if you want, but then you're only gaming yourselves.

Progression is definitely not a strong suit of this game. You won't have a character sheet with a level or XP gained and how it was spent. Descent is much better at that, but of course then you need an Overlord (and yes I know about Forgotten Souls).


When I have played - just my brother and I play Myth at the moment - it seems to work fine for us. We really enjoy the fully cooperative nature of Myth. When things go wrong, as they often do, we can look back and often say that it was the fault of the dice or our own carelessness.

I am not too concerned about the progression, as it suits a slow play style - fights are a little conundrum to be solved - and it's gratifying when you win through against the odds or play a combo just at the right moment.

As we are both pretty easy going in meeting up to play Myth irregularly, we often finish at the end of a tile - just jotting down a few details on AP meter, vitality, current threat etc... so we can just pick up the Act where we left off.

Everyone is right to say that progression can seem arbitrary or slow - it is at times. Thematically, with the idea of the Darkness, I see the game as a difficult battle against overwhelming evil - and so the gradual progression seems to fit well with this. It is not impossible to complete story quests if you begin with the minimum placements as a novice (lairs and hunting groups especially), building up the severity as you finish more story quests. We have had a few critical fails but have a good little synergy now between the Archer and the Soldier.

There are still many issues with the game, particularly the quest cards and the rule book - but the game has won us over with its quirky uniqueness, the quality of the miniatures and some of its core mechanics. With all the improvements hopefully coming with and around KS2 I am hoping Myth becomes a great rather than a simply good gaming experience.
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Random Fleming
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Marcus the Ready wrote:
I'm going to stick around and see what the next KS is, but I can't blame anyone for giving up. The game requires a hell of a lot of effort and the reward isn't always clear. There are a lot of other games that offer a fun experience without anything near the level of effort required for this one.


Jude wrote:
I know that the designers are working on the second Myth Kickstarter, and maybe everyone will get more of what they want from the game.


bigredMick wrote:
With all the improvements hopefully coming with and around KS2 I am hoping Myth becomes a great rather than a simply good gaming experience.


Yes, I believe the amount of backers/funds for KS2 and the creativity of what it has to offer will greatly forecast the future of Myth in the coming years.

Marcus the Ready wrote:
As for 'Dan', it's Dan Gillis (I think). He's a big fan of the game and it seems to work really well for him. He's written a lot of good fanfiction over on Lands of Myth.


Yes, he's got some wonderful stuff brewing for Myth! I'm a big fan.
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Shawn Hubbard
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BigredMick wrote:

When I have played - just my brother and I play Myth at the moment - it seems to work fine for us. We really enjoy the fully cooperative nature of Myth. When things go wrong, as they often do, we can look back and often say that it was the fault of the dice or our own carelessness.

I am not too concerned about the progression, as it suits a slow play style - fights are a little conundrum to be solved - and it's gratifying when you win through against the odds or play a combo just at the right moment.

As we are both pretty easy going in meeting up to play Myth irregularly, we often finish at the end of a tile - just jotting down a few details on AP meter, vitality, current threat etc... so we can just pick up the Act where we left off.

Everyone is right to say that progression can seem arbitrary or slow - it is at times. Thematically, with the idea of the Darkness, I see the game as a difficult battle against overwhelming evil - and so the gradual progression seems to fit well with this. It is not impossible to complete story quests if you begin with the minimum placements as a novice (lairs and hunting groups especially), building up the severity as you finish more story quests. We have had a few critical fails but have a good little synergy now between the Archer and the Soldier.

There are still many issues with the game, particularly the quest cards and the rule book - but the game has won us over with its quirky uniqueness, the quality of the miniatures and some of its core mechanics. With all the improvements hopefully coming with and around KS2 I am hoping Myth becomes a great rather than a simply good gaming experience.


Not arguing that point, just answering the question that was asked.
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