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Subject: How do you define like new for used games? rss

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Chee Peng Ang
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I bought a second hand game on geekmarket that was listed as like new. But to my horror when I received it, it was far from my definition of like new and I immediately regret buying it.

I would think that the game condition is only good and not even very good. Seems like different people define game conditions differently. How do you ensure that the game condition is as good as it is claimed?

What do you do when your purchase fails to meet your expectations?
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Kyle A
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New = still in shrink

Like New = Shrink taken off, box opened, maybe components are taken from their factory sealing

As soon as you "play" the game, it is used...not "like new" IMO

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Bryan Thunkd
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Condition of a game

Quote:
Like New - Game just removed from shrink wrap. No wear and tear, all facets of the game are intact.
This is the official BGG definition.
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Pasi Ojala
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Like new = pristine condition, is sleeved if played more than once or twice.
 
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Mario Lanza
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Your main course of action is the feedback channel. You explain in your marketplace feedback exactly what happened and how your expectations were not met. In that regard, before you make a purchase you can check the seller's feedback channel.

That said, I would give the seller an opportunity to make it right before posting negative feedback.
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Chee Peng Ang
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That's the thing. That's what I would expect of like new games too. But not all sellers follow the same definition. The game I bought has a very worn out and dented box with torn corners and edges. The rule book is well read and crumpled. The components seem decent though I have not inspected them. Some player aids are laminated (Horror! Horror!) Boards have signs of mold.

I would consider it good at best.
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Steve B
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For me, Like new = a flawless item that has been taken out of the shrink wrap.

The components are still in the punchboard. Nothing has ever been touched or used. No fingerprints on the manual.


If the counters have been punched, or the manual has been creased, then it is no longer like new, it is just plain old second hand "used".
 
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Stephen Williams
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I second Mario's suggestions.

You could also ask for pictures of the game in advance to help avoid this sort of situation in the future, but of course there's still room for people to mess with you there. They could omit damaged pieces or take photos from specific angles - heck, they could even grab third party pics of the game off the internet and pretend that's their copy.

Sadly, short of making the trade/sale face to face, I'm not sure there's any 100% guarantees. If the person has a good rep from previous exchanges here, then they're probably good people, but even then mistakes can happen.
 
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Chee Peng Ang
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I would respectfully tell my buyer that the condition of the game is way below my expectation and urge him to follow the geek market definitions on conditions of the game.

I did ask for pictures but they didn't prepare me for what I would actually see with my own eyes. The words of the seller also led me to be assured that it was almost like new.
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Chee Peng Ang
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Mario, what do you mean by 'make it right' here?

I think the seller didn't intentionally mislead me. Rather he defined the game condition according to his own standards.

Still this whole affair left a bad taste in my mouth and it's a deal I would normally not have made.

mlanza wrote:
Your main course of action is the feedback channel. You explain in your marketplace feedback exactly what happened and how your expectations were not met. In that regard, before you make a purchase you can check the seller's feedback channel.

That said, I would give the seller an opportunity to make it right before posting negative feedback.
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Stephen Williams
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angatheart wrote:

Mario, what do you mean by 'make it right' here?

I think the seller didn't intentionally mislead me. Rather he defined the game condition according to his own standards.


I suspect you're right. If all of the components are mostly OK, he was probably just not considering the box or the rulebook as included in the "like new" description (and he may have ignorant of the mold on the board.) Some people might even think of lamination as increasing the quality by preserving the contents within.

I think most of us here would agree that the box and the rules are most certainly to be included for consideration, of course, but there are always a few who think different for some reason. I'm also with you on lamination and other permanent preservatives being a detriment rather than a bonus (card sleeves can be removed if I don't want them.)

As far as what "making it right" means, that would be between you and him to discuss. Expecting him to actually provide a different copy of the game in "like new" condition is probably unreasonable, unfortunately. I'm assuming this particular game is not that easy to come by, or you probably would've just bought it at your FLGS brand new.

Perhaps he could refund you a portion of the sale cost, so as to make the price fair for what you received.
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Chee Peng Ang
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Thanks for all the advice.

I am a game collector and yes, it's an out of print edition for Runewars.

Needless to say, I am upset and disappointed that I have not managed to collect the game in like new condition.

I have sent him a message. No expectation except to voice my thoughts.
 
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Mario Lanza
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angatheart wrote:
Mario, what do you mean by 'make it right' here?


I once had an incident with a buyer where he felt that my advertised condition was less than stated. Though I wouldn't expect this from every seller, I refunded the payment allowing him to keep the game.

There have been a couple times when I regretted an exchange. I won't buy anything that isn't at minimum VERY GOOD, yet someone traded a crummy copy of Through the Desert to me. It's the worst condition of any game I own and I'm the sort of guy who will buy a favorite game again if any part of it gets damaged. So I am sensitive to people's expectations.

Some people are incredibly touchy about game condition and some are less so. It's hard always getting the grade perfect because there is some room for interpretation and, honestly, I guess people have some rating bias -- e.g. The seller is likely to have a slight bias toward a better rating and the buyer toward a worse rating.

You should discuss what you think is fair with the buyer. Could a partial refund help you feel better? Or would you rather return the game for a full refund? (I guess you'd end up paying the shipping cost.) I don't know what the options are, but I think it's fair for you to express your disappointment and see to what degree the seller is willing to accommodate you. Then based on your overall experience leave the appropriate feedback. You're entitled to use the feedback as a vehicle toward protecting other buyers. That's what it's for.
 
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Mario Lanza
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Stewi wrote:
I think most of us here would agree that the box and the rules are most certainly to be included for consideration, of course, but there are always a few who think different for some reason.


I'd be stunned that anyone on The Geek didn't consider the box part of the game itself. Unlike other products where we rip open and discard the container, to me the box is most certainly part of the product when it comes to board games. Publishers often spend a considerable amount paying for nice cover art.

http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Condition_of_a_game
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Bill L
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alexankh wrote:

As soon as you "play" the game, it is used...not "like new" IMO


I don't necessarily agree with this - you can play a game a few times and still have all the components in "like new" condition, without any marks, bends, etc.

Basically "like new" means everything should look just as it would if you were to buy a brand new game, open it, and punch everything out.
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Bryan Thunkd
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Stewi wrote:
angatheart wrote:

Mario, what do you mean by 'make it right' here?

I think the seller didn't intentionally mislead me. Rather he defined the game condition according to his own standards.


I suspect you're right. If all of the components are mostly OK, he was probably just not considering the box or the rulebook as included in the "like new" description (and he may have ignorant of the mold on the board.)
Mold on the board is definitely NOT "like new" and is certainly something I would expect the seller to "make right".

I think some of the answers above are unreasonable... unpunched pieces, or sleeves seems beyond what I'd expect of "like new", but mold is definitely a complete violation of the "like new" concept. I'd be asking for a new copy of the game or I'd be filing a claim with paypal. You should photograph all the issues with the game and document all your communication with the seller.
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David Janik-Jones
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Like new for me personally means I have opened the box and punched components. Maybe played once or twice but there is no wear anywhere, even the rulebook seems unread. I am always very careful with my games.

If you got a game from me that was described as "like new" you'd never be able to tell if I'd played it a few times or simply had just punched the components out and bagged and sleeved them. Not a mark, scuff or dent on the box. No wear and tear, everything intact and pristine.

"Mint" is unpunched, perhaps even components never touched by human hands, but the shrink wrap is off for whatever reason.
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Scott Fishwick
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Billtacular wrote:
alexankh wrote:

As soon as you "play" the game, it is used...not "like new" IMO


I don't necessarily agree with this - you can play a game a few times and still have all the components in "like new" condition, without any marks, bends, etc.

Basically "like new" means everything should look just as it would if you were to buy a brand new game, open it, and punch everything out.

This would be my understanding too. Can be played as long as it's indistinguishable from a new copy in the condition of the pieces. Impossible to tell though if someone has played if it's in perfect condition.
 
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Kyle A
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Billtacular wrote:
alexankh wrote:

As soon as you "play" the game, it is used...not "like new" IMO


I don't necessarily agree with this - you can play a game a few times and still have all the components in "like new" condition, without any marks, bends, etc.

Basically "like new" means everything should look just as it would if you were to buy a brand new game, open it, and punch everything out.


I draw the line at punching.

In the end, we are splitting hairs. I suppose I'm a bit conservative on my interpretation of Like New. I know as a seller (and ebay is a different beast) I don't feel comfortable listing is as "New" if the pieces are punched. That makes me feel like it has been played. There are games that don't have pages of items to punch. For those, I would be ok with listing it "Like New".

I try to err on the side of caution when selling...
 
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Ryan R
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Like new, to me, is: shrink off, unplayed. Punched is okay, but unplayed.

Mold is damaged.
 
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Pasi Ojala
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alexankh wrote:
I draw the line at punching.

In the end, we are splitting hairs.

Yes, you are. Unpunched is not "like new", it is "new with shrink removed to check all of the components are there".
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Jerry
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Its not like buying a car where the second the receipt prints its no longer new?
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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a1bert wrote:
alexankh wrote:
I draw the line at punching.

In the end, we are splitting hairs.

Yes, you are. Unpunched is not "like new", it is "new with shrink removed to check all of the components are there".
Agreed. If someone buys a game and plays it once and decides that they don't like it, I'd consider that a like new game. Well, assuming that you couldn't tell whether it had actually been played or not.

If you can't tell if it has been played or not, it's "like new". Unpunched would be something I'd only expect of a "mint" condition copy.
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Mario Lanza
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Thunkd wrote:
If you can't tell if it has been played or not, it's "like new". Unpunched would be something I'd only expect of a "mint" condition copy.


I'd use the same standard. Maybe the Conditions list warrants an update to include "Mint" and make said distinction.
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Pete
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I know I'm a curmudgeon, but I define "like new" as a used game that someone would like me to pay full price for. If it's actually "like new" the keyword is "unpunched."

Pete (has been crotchety for some time now)
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