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Subject: Your Thoughts on Apprentice vs. Master Play rss

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C W
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For those of you that have actually played both versions, what are your thoughts on the two different play styles? How heavily do you feel -1 ingredient affects you, how do you like Master debunking, and what are your thoughts on the more demanding conferences? I have played 4 games now and keep playing with new people, so have yet to do Master version.
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GeekInsight
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My first game was Apprentice level just to get used to it. For my next two, we did Master's level debunking but Apprentice starting resources and conferences.

Master's debunking is awesome. It really requires you to think in terms of mixing ingredients rather than just spitting out an answer. So fun.

The master conferences definitely seem geared to really push publication - while the lack of a starting ingredient seems to make that more difficult. Maybe that would make the lower end of the get-up track more appealing. Ingredients - especially in the early game - are important. And I imagine that becomes even more so when you start with one fewer.
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Karl
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Same opinion here. I like Master debunking, but at least at my current play level I think the other master rules are rather a bit too punishing even if the impact isn't all that big.
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Charles Washington
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I really enjoy the master Debunking rules and honestly the whole rushed to publish is fairly exciting. You have to use your hedging seals more and the entire game is just more intense.

last Saturday we completed a 17 hour gaming fest that featured four games Of Alchemists at master level, all rules included. You learn the value of the 3 ingredients space quickly.
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James Rousselle
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Great stuff!!

Thank you, everyone for your comments. I have played 3 times (4 players each time) on beginner level. One of the guys in our local gaming group played master debunking and really enjoyed it. Right now, we are still trying to get more players to learn the game.

I wonder how much the artifacts change in value when the difficulty level changes...

I'll report how the master debunking level goes.
 
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Mc Jarvis
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I have not played Apprentice, but I also have had no issues teaching people the master's level. I'm not really sure what the apprentice level offers other than a less-publication focused game, but if everyone is penalized the same this doesn't seem like a problem to me.
 
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Alessandro Cingolani
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The apprentice version is easier deduction-wise, you get more infos in a single game due to the additional ingredient card at start, and via debunking. And the conferences are less demanding, so you can focus more on the deduction aspect of the game without the pressure of publishing earlier.
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mfl134
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The biggest difference is the debunking.

With master debunking, in order to debunk you generally need to give some of your valuable information to the group.

I wanted to debunk ingredient A but in order to do so I needed to mix with ingredient B. This mixing was information I already had. On the flip side, you can gamble with debunking and use it as a way to get information without having ingredients to mix (at the cost of 1/2/3 reputation)

In the apprentice variant, it is easier to debunk and give minimal information to others.

also, strategically, there are reason to create conflicts with an ingredient rather than debunking it.
 
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mfl134
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Galandil wrote:
The apprentice version is easier deduction-wise, you get more infos in a single game due to the additional ingredient card at start, and via debunking. And the conferences are less demanding, so you can focus more on the deduction aspect of the game without the pressure of publishing earlier.


I felt like there was more information given out from master debunking (less to the debunker though)
 
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Alessandro Cingolani
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You're right that you give out more information with a correct master debunk, you allow all the players to discover an aspect of two ingredients instead of just one as in apprentice debunking.

However, the master debunking system is a lot less useful in discovering new information when risking a non-correct debunk, in the apprentice version you discover with certainty the aspect of one ingredient, whereas in master debunking you have a lot less information when the debunk isn't correct (the probability of getting the correct debunk is low, and when it's not correct, say you get a "not-R+" result, you can't rule out that both the ingredients don't have the R+ aspect, unless you have already other informations on those ingredients).

So, overall, imo the master debunking is a lot less appealing (for its reputation cost) as a mean to discover unknown information.
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Viktor Karlsson Mantel
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As I read here and understand from the rulebook, the master debunking give out more information to the group.

What do you feel about that?

I have played the game 2 times with aprentice on all levels.

Next time I hope I can try on master, but shall I try only debunk on master and all the other things on apprentice?

Wich is your favourite combination of the Master/Apprentice level?

Edit, note that In both games all player have made very good amount of points.

Maybe we need to play with master level to force people more to publish when they are more unsure?
 
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mfl134
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Tolchock wrote:
As I read here and understand from the rulebook, the master debunking give out more information to the group.

What do you feel about that?

I have played the game 2 times with aprentice on all levels.

Next time I hope I can try on master, but shall I try only debunk on master and all the other things on apprentice?

Wich is your favourite combination of the Master/Apprentice level?

Edit, note that In both games all player have made very good amount of points.

Maybe we need to play with master level to force people more to publish when they are more unsure?


It gives more information to the non-dubunkers and less to the debunker.

It makes apprentice vs master work effectively as a handicapping mechanism.
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Viktor Karlsson Mantel
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I think im going to play all in master next time. So people need to take more risk also.

My girlfriend have had all the chemicals right both times we played.

(Myabe becouse she got the good artifact that lets her keep one of the ingredients every time she mix a potion
 
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Steve Dupree
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I've mixed master and apprentice setup, to give a handicap when newbies are playing in a game with more experienced players. I haven't yet played with master conferences, but I'm sure they could easily function the same way.

Has anyone mixed master and apprentice debunking? Is master debunking strictly harder for the debunker? Is it easier for the witnesses (other players) to interpret? Is there any conflict between some debunkings causing conflict tokens and others, not?
 
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Bryan Gerding
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I have yet to do Master Debunking. I have taught this game to so many people and none of them have played enough as I have to actually warrant moving on to that level.

So I sit and I wait and I hope that one day soon I will experience it.
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Steve Dupree
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stannius wrote:
I've mixed master and apprentice setup, to give a handicap when newbies are playing in a game with more experienced players. I haven't yet played with master conferences, but I'm sure they could easily function the same way.

Has anyone mixed master and apprentice debunking? Is master debunking strictly harder for the debunker? Is it easier for the witnesses (other players) to interpret? Is there any conflict between some debunkings causing conflict tokens and others, not?


I tried this once and it worked fine, but there wasn't a lot of debunking in that particular game.
 
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B Morgan
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stannius wrote:
I've mixed master and apprentice setup, to give a handicap when newbies are playing in a game with more experienced players...


That's a great idea!

I've only played one game, and my host had only played once before and reported that they had deduced things quite quickly in an apprentice game. He hadn't read up on master debunking, so we played with master set-up, master conferences, but only the apprentice debunking - everything seemed to work just fine.

We might try master debunking next time, but I recommend the above if you can't quite get your head around master debunking. Alchemists reminds me of a Vlaada Chvatil game where there's *a lot* of information up-front, so there's no harm in keeping one part simple.
 
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