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Subject: VARIANT Ideas wanted: improving the final scenario rss

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Brian M
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So far I've played one game of Arcadia Quest, and we had a great time through most of the campaign, then absolutely hated the final quest.

Quite simply, Lord Fang is too hard to kill in one turn, no matter how well you set up. If you hurt him, you most likely just set someone else up to win.

Further, if you try to get into position for a good chain of attacks, someone else can just rush in and attack him. Since his counter works against everyone in the area, they kill your hero via attacking Fang!

I think that, for us, this scenario needs some sort of mechanic to let players actually defeat Fang, or score points for injuring him, or do SOMETHING to make it more viable to actually end the game and win.

Suggestions?

EDIT: Changed the header, since it apparently wasn't clear.
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Robert R
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Re: Ideas wanted: improving the final scenario
Throwing some ideas out there:

Change the death condition for Lord Fang. Each time you hit him, you place a guild token on his card. If you place a second guild token on his card and his health is at zero when your attack on him is resolved, you win. This would also mean that Lord Fang could be considered still alive even if he has zero health.

Maybe have a special aura around Lord Fang where he can only be hurt if you have at least one guild member within the aura and there are no other enemy guild members within it.
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Jason Rupp
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Re: Ideas wanted: improving the final scenario
StormKnight wrote:
So far I've played one game of Arcadia Quest, and we had a great time through most of the campaign, then absolutely hated the final quest.

Quite simply, Lord Fang is too hard to kill in one turn, no matter how well you set up. If you hurt him, you most likely just set someone else up to win.

Further, if you try to get into position for a good chain of attacks, someone else can just rush in and attack him. Since his counter works against everyone in the area, they kill your hero via attacking Fang!

I think that, for us, this scenario needs some sort of mechanic to let players actually defeat Fang, or score points for injuring him, or do SOMETHING to make it more viable to actually end the game and win.

Suggestions?


I don't really have suggestions, just wanted to share my experience with Lord Fang. Going into the mission I dreaded it. It felt like it would be a huge king making experience.

Maybe it's the way our group plays... but it was a freaking bloodbath. Entire guilds were wiped out and had to respawn at their camp. Near the end, I was able to position myself in a spot blocking off the entrance into the building. I was the only person that could attack fang and no one had cleared the portal entrances yet. I killed Lord Fang in 2 attacks.

Will every battle end this way? No. I just wanted to let you know that it will depend on the group.

Perhaps you could change the rule that any time you respawn, you have to respawn at base camp instead of the normal respawn rules? That might be too brutal though.
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Robert R
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Re: Ideas wanted: improving the final scenario
rrrrupp wrote:

I don't really have suggestions, just wanted to share my experience with Lord Fang. Going into the mission I dreaded it. It felt like it would be a huge king making experience.

Maybe it's the way our group plays... but it was a freaking bloodbath. Entire guilds were wiped out and had to respawn at their camp. Near the end, I was able to position myself in a spot blocking off the entrance into the building. I was the only person that could attack fang and no one had cleared the portal entrances yet. I killed Lord Fang in 2 attacks.

Will every battle end this way? No. I just wanted to let you know that it will depend on the group.

Perhaps you could change the rule that any time you respawn, you have to respawn at base camp instead of the normal respawn rules? That might be too brutal though.


This, in itself, is very helpful information. Preparing other players by making it clear before the battle starts that it will likely take 2+ hits to kill Lord Fang, might be a valid solution. Advise that if you want to be the one to get that final hit, you may need to slaughter a few other guilds first to set yourself up.
 
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Bryan Penrose
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Re: Ideas wanted: improving the final scenario
You can use the option proposed elsewhere that whoever has won the most scenarios wins the campaign, or it has even been proposed to weight the circles (outer circle worth the least, inner circle worth more, and the final scenario worth the most) to determine a winner.
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Brian M
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Re: Ideas wanted: improving the final scenario
Quote:
Near the end, I was able to position myself in a spot blocking off the entrance into the building. I was the only person that could attack fang and no one had cleared the portal entrances yet.

Very different from our experience.
Our portals were cleared very quickly. Though, at one point things got blocked up enough that one team simply could NOT get in - both portals and the entrance were all blocked. Really not fun for that team at that point since there is absolutely nothing they can do to counter that.

It seems very hard to keep 3 other teams out, or set them all back enough to give you the time - especially since they should all stop fighting each other and gang up on you if it looks like you are getting into that position!
 
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Jason Rupp
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Re: Ideas wanted: improving the final scenario
StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
Near the end, I was able to position myself in a spot blocking off the entrance into the building. I was the only person that could attack fang and no one had cleared the portal entrances yet.

Very different from our experience.
Our portals were cleared very quickly. Though, at one point things got blocked up enough that one team simply could NOT get in - both portals and the entrance were all blocked. Really not fun for that team at that point since there is absolutely nothing they can do to counter that.

It seems very hard to keep 3 other teams out, or set them all back enough to give you the time - especially since they should all stop fighting each other and gang up on you if it looks like you are getting into that position!


Well like I said, it will depend on your group. I think it worked well for us because we're so blood thirsty. Our group started brawling outside the door in the courtyard area. Honestly, this is what should happen if someone has a character that kill Fang in 2 shots. That most likely means they loaded up on attack and boost cards so they are very likely a glass cannon. Your opponents shouldn't let you just walk right in.

I wouldn't say it's impossible to get in once people have blocked it off. The wind spell can come in handy here to displace anyone you want.
 
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Brian M
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Re: Ideas wanted: improving the final scenario
Quote:
I think it worked well for us because we're so blood thirsty.

Lol. See, I feel like it worked poorly because we're so bloodthirsty - no one could stay alive long enough to get 2 shots off!


Quote:
I wouldn't say it's impossible to get in once people have blocked it off. The wind spell can come in handy here to displace anyone you want.

I'll have to look that up, but I'm pretty sure it would require LOS, and you can't get LOS into Fang's room if the teleporters and doors are blocked (which is the case if you are blocked out of the room entirely).
 
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Jason Rupp
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Re: Ideas wanted: improving the final scenario
StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
I think it worked well for us because we're so blood thirsty.

Lol. See, I feel like it worked poorly because we're so bloodthirsty - no one could stay alive long enough to get 2 shots off!


Quote:
I wouldn't say it's impossible to get in once people have blocked it off. The wind spell can come in handy here to displace anyone you want.

I'll have to look that up, but I'm pretty sure it would require LOS, and you can't get LOS into Fang's room if the teleporters and doors are blocked (which is the case if you are blocked out of the room entirely).


The wind spells let you move a target and you only need to roll a hit I believe. You can clear the doorway with it by moving the person out of the way.
 
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Dave Smith
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Re: Ideas wanted: improving the final scenario
We had a great time with this scenario, you just needs tactics and use specialised equipment, like moving enemy models out of the way with certain attacks, stunning Lord Fang, laying bombs - loads of things you can do other than just hitting with a sword.
 
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Osku Odi
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Re: Ideas wanted: improving the final scenario
We've had games where the final scenario is over pretty quickly, and also games that have ended up in a long bloodbath outside the door. Positioning (blocking squares is the key), and sometimes even putting out one of your best heroes as a bait and have him killed, so you can move another hero into the room.

Wind spell is usefull, and moving the troll can create interesting results

And those bombs mentioned before...

But ideas if you want to make it different, how about actually making Fang easier to kill, but harder to reach?
 
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Atnier Rodriguez
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Re: Ideas wanted: improving the final scenario
Jassokissa wrote:
games that have ended up in a long bloodbath outside the door.


That sounds pretty hilarious. A huge, violent brawl to see who twists the door knob first. Wonder what the denizens on the other side would think of the ongoing situation.
 
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Osku Odi
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okami31 wrote:
Jassokissa wrote:
games that have ended up in a long bloodbath outside the door.


That sounds pretty hilarious. A huge, violent brawl to see who twists the door knob first. Wonder what the denizens on the other side would think of the ongoing situation.


They must have been pretty sure that only one exhausted half dead hero will reach the room....
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Brian M
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OK people, if your group had a good time with this scenario, that's great for you. But we did not, and are unlikely to in future plays either without some changes. Thus looking for variants.

As for actual variant discussion (and thanks for providing some!):

Quote:
You can use the option proposed elsewhere that whoever has won the most scenarios wins the campaign, or it has even been proposed to weight the circles (outer circle worth the least, inner circle worth more, and the final scenario worth the most) to determine a winner.

This might make the campaign victory a little more satisfying, but wouldn't really make the last game more fun.


Quote:
But ideas if you want to make it different, how about actually making Fang easier to kill, but harder to reach?

Well, that would require changing around stats and set-up, and need to be re-figured for the other two campaigns as well, so not really an easy fix.

I'm thinking adding some kind of conditions based on 'most gold', and awarding gold for every point of damage done to Fang. Maybe a bonus for killing him. I feel like having secret goals for the final battle might be good, since then you wouldn't be absolutely sure of who was in the lead, but that might be too complicated, especially to make them work with the other campaigns as well.


Quote:
The wind spells let you move a target and you only need to roll a hit I believe. You can clear the doorway with it by moving the person out of the way.

You still need line of sight though. When the teleporter and door spaces are blocked by models INSIDE the final room, you can't get there to get line of sight.
 
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Jason Rupp
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StormKnight wrote:
OK people, if your group had a good time with this scenario, that's great for you. But we did not, and are unlikely to in future plays either without some changes. Thus looking for variants.

As for actual variant discussion (and thanks for providing some!):

Quote:
You can use the option proposed elsewhere that whoever has won the most scenarios wins the campaign, or it has even been proposed to weight the circles (outer circle worth the least, inner circle worth more, and the final scenario worth the most) to determine a winner.

This might make the campaign victory a little more satisfying, but wouldn't really make the last game more fun.


Quote:
But ideas if you want to make it different, how about actually making Fang easier to kill, but harder to reach?

Well, that would require changing around stats and set-up, and need to be re-figured for the other two campaigns as well, so not really an easy fix.

I'm thinking adding some kind of conditions based on 'most gold', and awarding gold for every point of damage done to Fang. Maybe a bonus for killing him. I feel like having secret goals for the final battle might be good, since then you wouldn't be absolutely sure of who was in the lead, but that might be too complicated, especially to make them work with the other campaigns as well.


Quote:
The wind spells let you move a target and you only need to roll a hit I believe. You can clear the doorway with it by moving the person out of the way.

You still need line of sight though. When the teleporter and door spaces are blocked by models INSIDE the final room, you can't get there to get line of sight.


Yeah... I saw the FAQ and was perplexed by the bit about the door blocking line of sight... is it not a normal door that you can open close (only if you have 6 coins)? I guess we played it wrong. That seems like a bad ruling/change imo because it makes it possible for someone to get locked out.

As for variants...

How about keeping track of total damage done to Fang. Whoever ends up doing the most damage to Fang gets the victory. To avoid situations where one player has it wrapped up (i.e. he has already done more than half of Fangs possible HP) I would also count any overkill damage. For example, if he only had 1 HP left but you just did 20 damage to him, you get to count all 20. Since Fang can heal... I would only count the damage done to him after he attacks back and possibly heals. In the rare case that he heals more than the damage you do... I would not penalize the player and make them lose points or go negative
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Brian M
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rrrrupp wrote:
As for variants...

How about keeping track of total damage done to Fang. Whoever ends up doing the most damage to Fang gets the victory. To avoid situations where one player has it wrapped up (i.e. he has already done more than half of Fangs possible HP) I would also count any overkill damage. For example, if he only had 1 HP left but you just did 20 damage to him, you get to count all 20. Since Fang can heal... I would only count the damage done to him after he attacks back and possibly heals. In the rare case that he heals more than the damage you do... I would not penalize the player and make them lose points or go negative


surprise blush

This sounds like such an obvious and good idea, that I have no idea why we hadn't considered it. Thanks!
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Riccardo Amadeo
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I'll share my experience: I killed lord Fang in one hit.

In the first turn, kanga entered through a portal and moved on the side of the troll and minotaur, killing one of the two sister in front of her.

During other turns, an opponent killed the minotaur, so I decided to take the now free spot, accepting the two attacks (one from the troll and the other from the surviving sister) since kanga had (sorry, i forgot the name of the cards) the armor (+6 defence dice, +4 life points) and the sword (+2 defence dice, 2 rerolls), for a total of 10 defense and 2 rerolls. I survived the two attacks (the sister didn't eevn hurt me).

After moving, I attacked lord Fang directly with the axe (5 attack dice, swords, every CRIT inflicts two more wounds) and the permanent that gave it +2 attack dice (total of 7 dice, with two rerolls). I the first seven dices where 3 CRITS, 3 swords and a bow, then i got lucky rolling the three CRITS, i got two more and a sword and rolled again... Well, to make it easy: I ended with 6 CRITS and 6 swords, for a an astounding total of 24 damages.
Lord Fang counterattacked me but didn't heal himself one bit and died.

Now, my guess is that 24 with an attack is obviously a very lucky roll... But my strategy was aiming to something between 14 and 17 which was kind of fair (counting 9 dice - 7 + 2 rerolls - 2 crits; 5 swords and 2 bows would be statistically believable, and the total would have been 12 wounds with two dices to be added and the 66% of chance to deal at least another wound with each one of them, or even 3 + another roll...) and it was rewarded by the rolls.

Oh, and Kanga didn't exhaust the axe by taking a wound (4 Life Points left after that) so that it could survive and use the axe again next turn if needed).

So, was I strategically wise, or just very lucky?
You decide
 
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Brian M
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Quote:
So, was I strategically wise, or just very lucky?

Well, with x2 hits on a crit, the average damage per die is around 1 1/6 (or close - exploding dice are hard to calculate!). Counting your re-rolls as 2 extra dice is pretty reasonable (a re-roll in Arcadia Quest is often as good as an extra die, but occasionally worse since you could roll all hits and have no use for it).

So 9 dice x 1 1/6 = 10.5 hits. Average of 11 or so.

So what you were likely to do was leave Lord Fang with just a few life left and an easy kill for the next hero.

So, yeah, a good combo...but you were lucky.
 
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Jason Rupp
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StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
So, was I strategically wise, or just very lucky?

Well, with x2 hits on a crit, the average damage per die is around 1 1/6 (or close - exploding dice are hard to calculate!). Counting your re-rolls as 2 extra dice is pretty reasonable (a re-roll in Arcadia Quest is often as good as an extra die, but occasionally worse since you could roll all hits and have no use for it).

So 9 dice x 1 1/6 = 10.5 hits. Average of 11 or so.

So what you were likely to do was leave Lord Fang with just a few life left and an easy kill for the next hero.

So, yeah, a good combo...but you were lucky.


Yeah, you were lucky. I had a 12 dice melee attack and only ended up taking slightly more than half of his HP off in our mission.

Questionable strategy by your mates though. Clearing the way when there are others in the room (especially someone with a powerful combo) is just a poor play on his part. He should have targeted you.
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Brian M
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Quote:
So 9 dice x 1 1/6 = 10.5 hits. Average of 11 or so.

Whoa! I goofed that up. I overestimated how much the exploding dice adds. Turns out the average is more around 1.03 per die, or pretty close to 1 per die.

I also overestimated re-rolls a bit. I did a set of test runs simulating the attack and the average damage was 8.16.

The attack did enough damage to kill Lord Fang in one hit only 12.5% of the time, and 7.5% of the total time that was doing exactly 13 points, which means that any critical hits on his counter heal him back up to being alive. Not good odds for one shot killing him at all!

Sorry, I like game stats. They are fun.
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Branden Sprenger
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I think that Fang should have a number of lives the player have to defeat. Like equal number of players +1. Most Fang kills wins. Tie breaker would be least amount of deaths.
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Josh Platten
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We always have two winners. We have the overall medal winner and the final campaign winner. That way every one is still in it to the end and also the person that did the best overall in all the missions is also not screwed if someone kills Fang.
So two people can co-share in the victory.
And if the medal winner is the person that defeats Fang they are the supreme winner and win solo by themselves.
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Matthew Robinson
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Jjplatten wrote:
We always have two winners. We have the overall medal winner and the final campaign winner. That way every one is still in it to the end and also the person that did the best overall in all the missions is also not screwed if someone kills Fang.
So two people can co-share in the victory.
And if the medal winner is the person that defeats Fang they are the supreme winner and win solo by themselves.


This is definitely the way I plan to play. Just tell people from the get go: there are most likely going to be two winners today. The one who gets the most medals and the one who kills Fang. This means that even if the medal winner is a runaway, there's still a lot of fun to be had for everyone in the finale -- even for the medal winner who wants to secure a pure solo win.

Obviously if you're playing with two players this can get kind of weird But hey, everyone wins?
 
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