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The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: collect vs add vs gain? rss

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Derek VDG
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We have a question, and I couldn't find an answer.

Voice of Isengard has a land, the Fords of Isen http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/lotr/lord-of-the-rings-c...

It says: While Fords of Isen is in the staging area, players cannot gain resources from card effects.

We are unsure what 'gain resources from card effects' truly means. For example, does it prevent:

Gloin - Response: After Gloin suffers damage, add 1 resource to his resource pool for each point of damage he just suffered.

Theodred - Response: After Théodred commits to a quest, choose a hero committed to that quest. Add 1 resource to that hero's resource pool.

Radagast - Radagast collects 1 resource each resource phase.

Treebeard - Treebeard enters play exhausted and collects 1 resource each resource phase

Envoy of Pelagir - Response: After Envoy of Pelargir enters play, add 1 resource to a Gondor or Noble hero's resource pool.

Bilbo's Magic Ring - Action: Exhaust Bilbo's Magic Ring and raise your threat by 1 to gain 1 [Baggins] resource. (Limit once per round.)

I'm sure there are others.

Some say collect, most say add ... and a few actually say GAIN. While functionally they are all equivalent, quite often in games specific wording is important. Does the term "gain" also include cards that "add" and/or cards that "collect"?
 
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Tony Fanchi
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From FAQ 1.7:

Quote:
(1.25) Collecting, Adding, Moving, and Gaining Resources
Collecting resources refers to both collecting resources during the resource phase and gaining resources through other card effects. An effect that prevents a hero from collecting resources prevents both methods of acquiring new resources.
Adding a resource to a hero’s pool is the act of taking a resource from the token bank and placing it in that hero’s pool. Adding a resource always results in the total number of resources controlled by the players being increased.
Moving a resource is the act of taking a resource from one hero’s pool and placing it in another hero’s pool. This does not count as ‘adding’ a resource because it did not take a new resource from the token bank and the total number of resources controlled by the players did not increase.
Gaining a resource is a blanket term that includes collecting, adding and moving. Any time the number of resources in a hero’s pool is increased, that hero has gained one or more resources.

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Sean Switajewski

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Luckily, this was recently clarified on the latest FAQ, because it had been confusing us for a while.
https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/27/fd...

In summary,

Gain is blanket term which encompasses both:

Collecting resources, which is specific to gaining resources through the standard game mechanic at the beginning of the resource phase

and

Adding Resources, specific to gaining resources through card effects.

Specific to your question, the only time players can gain resources is at the beginning of the resource phase. So heroes, Radagast, and Treebeard would all gain a resource, but effects like SoG, Theodred, etc. could not trigger.
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Uncle Potato
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l3afonthewind wrote:
Specific to your question, the only time players can gain resources is at the beginning of the resource phase. So heroes, Radagast, and Treebeard would all gain a resource, but effects like SoG, Theodred, etc. could not trigger.

But aren't Treebeard and Radagast also collecting due to their card effect? Since the FAQ says Gaining is a blanket term that also includes Collecting and Treebeard and Radagast's cards say to Collect one resource. I've always assumed that if something is written on a card, then it is a card effect, so I would assume they lose out in this case.
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Derek VDG
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That's certainly what it sounds like to me, Uncle Potato.

This ruling really makes this particular card OP IMO, making several Heroes and cards essentially useless.

I play in a 4p group, and we really want to make good utilitarian decks that can handle any quest. So far, our decks have managed fairly well. With 4p though (so 4+ cards per turn, Surge depending), it is almost guaranteed to have a Fords of Isen card out within the first 2 turns. Add in the location that this quest has (the Kings Road) that requires it to be the first one traveled to, and it means no resource gain ever. My wife's Theodred is pretty much useless (and he's pretty essential to activate her Aragorn). My Radagast for my Eagles is useless, as is my Horn of Gondor. Etc.

Now add in the fact that you get severely punished for having a large number of cards in your hand ... which cannot now be paid for since we can't gain resources to get them into play.

Honestly, this first quest in VOI just plain sucks because of all the denial and punishment, and we are disappointed that it seems like FFG is forcing us to specifically tailor our decks to complete some quests.

Making cards useless, especially Heroes, for essentially the entire game is not fun. Enough of a rant, though.

Thanks for pointing out the ruling in the FAQ to me guys.
 
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Sean Switajewski

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Nate_001 wrote:
l3afonthewind wrote:
Specific to your question, the only time players can gain resources is at the beginning of the resource phase. So heroes, Radagast, and Treebeard would all gain a resource, but effects like SoG, Theodred, etc. could not trigger.

But aren't Treebeard and Radagast also collecting due to their card effect? Since the FAQ says Gaining is a blanket term that also includes Collecting and Treebeard and Radagast's cards say to Collect one resource. I've always assumed that if something is written on a card, then it is a card effect, so I would assume they lose out in this case.


Great point, and as written that totally makes sense. Good news though, I emailed Caleb and here's what he had to say:

"The Fords of Isen should read “While Fords of Isen is in the staging area, heroes cannot gain resources from card effects.” This language would more accurately define its effect, since it his heroes and not players who gain resources in the game. Furthermore, this wording would help make it clear that the abilities of Treebeard and Radagast are unaffected by this location."

So looks like the allies slide under the radar for that location. Still punishing, but maybe a creative way around it, for an Ent/Eagles deck.

More and more though it seems like when you play more than 2 players, you need someone controlling locations.
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Slamin Perfect
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dvang wrote:
With 4p though (so 4+ cards per turn, Surge depending), it is almost guaranteed to have a Fords of Isen card out within the first 2 turns. Add in the location that this quest has (the Kings Road) that requires it to be the first one traveled to, and it means no resource gain ever.


Don't you mean no resource acceleration?


dvang wrote:
Honestly, this first quest in VOI just plain sucks because of all the denial and punishment, and we are disappointed that it seems like FFG is forcing us to specifically tailor our decks to complete some quests.

Making cards useless, especially Heroes, for essentially the entire game is not fun. Enough of a rant, though.


Though having the same super decks that never have to change isn't that fun either (at least for some).
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Derek VDG
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@Sean: Thanks. It will help me a little, but just serves to piss off my wife even more, I think.

@Slamin: Yes, I meant resource acceleration, since obviously the normal resources per turn are gained.

While I realize that altering decks can happen, and making decks *is* fun. Essentially requiring decks to tailor their cards to a specific quest really isn't fun either. I will mention that my group of 4 plays 4 mono-decks for the fun and challenge. My wife plays Leadership, I play tactics, and another couple plays Spirit and Lore decks. We have gotten pretty good. We do continually tinker with our decks, most especially as we get new cards to try with new packs. We also shift a few cards around depending on the quests we are facing.

However, this particular quest has forced everyone to essentially scrap their entire decks already built, rather than simply tweak them. Without resource acceleration, and adding in the huge hand size penalties (so also removal of all card draw), no-one can afford to have cards costing more than 2 in their decks. Additionally, staple/favored heroes, such as my wife's Theoden+Aragorn are completely neutered. It has made the quest very un-fun to play, because we've been forced to throw in cards that we don't find enjoyable and not use cards that we do find fun and interesting. In order to attempt to be competitive for this quest, we've been forced to make decks that we dislike to play.

Conversely, we also hate having a quest that we haven't won at least once, which is therefore still nudging us to keep trying to make decks that will work. So, we're kind of screwed. ;)
 
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alogos teeheehee
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We usually manage it with Asfaloth.
Put 2 counter the turn it is revealed, then, at the refresh phase, finish it. You're save until next staging.
Alternatively, include more location management, it is quite essential in 4p.
Lastly, add some thror key / thror map, they are great.
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