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Subject: 2nd vs. 3rd Edition rss

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Kevin Thatcher
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Got Die Macher on Thursday evening and was able to get it on the table on Saturday. It is truly an amazing game; the 4+ hours flew by, and we were able to finish the game with only one (minor) mistake in the 7th election. I can't wait for my next game.

Just a couple of questions regarding the main differences between the 2nd and 3rd editions. From my reading of the rules (I never played the game before yesterday), the main changes from the 2nd to 3rd editions are:

1) There are many fewer national opinions available in the exchange pool in the 3rd edition. This has the effect of severely limiting one's choices in changing regional opinions and tended to have the effect in our game of all players clumping together in terms of their party platforms. This made it difficult for us to catch the leader.

2) Opinions are exchanged directly in the 3rd edition; there is no "shifting to the left" and putting the new opinion in the far right space as there is in the 2nd edition. This caused a bit of a swing late in our game as one of the players was able to replace a high value opinion on the 7th election.

Given that I have not played the 2nd edition, I was interested in:

1) Valley Game's reasoning behind the rules changes, and

2) Experienced players views on the rules changes.

One final point; at the end of the game, it seemed as if luck played a pretty large part in the victory, but upon further reflection it became clear that the winner had done some very smart things (especially in terms of coalitons) to win. Plus the rest of us pretty much marched to his tune rather than trying to take him down. All in all, a great game. Kudos to VG for the reprint!

Kevin
 
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Todd
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I would say play with second edtion rule the next time you play and see which one you like better. I have played 2nd ed 6 times now and I would be very hesitant to play with 3rd ed rules. Esspecially the second one that seem totally out of left feild. There has been a raging debate on the geek on the first rule. I personally feel it plays better with 2nd Ed interpetation of the rules. YMMV
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John Elbl
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I have not yet played 3rd edition; but with the rules change I would personally be certain to hold platform cards that melded well with the potential 'swap board', as these will be the only options now for changing of platforms. Given that for my play the platform hand yields one of the most intense parts of the game, I am not certain whether I will 'like' the change or not without a play through.
 
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Doug Adams
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Kevin Lee Thatcher wrote:

2) Experienced players views on the rules changes.


I don't like the sound of them. Number 1 just means the powers of holding votes/media majorities are diluted as you don't have the exchange choice in the pool. Still, they must have their reasons... simplicity?

Number 2 was a post 2nd edition variant someone came up with that Hans im Glueck liked and adopted - I'd recommend using that.

 
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Michael Webb
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I concur with Doug.

The non-shift rule was in fact the rule as printed in the manual in the 2nd edition, but Karl-Heinz Schmiel later adopted the "shifting" variant, and it is a better way to play the game IMO as it keeps late game swings, while still dramatic, at least moderately reigned in.

As for the media thing, I hate the new rule, and I dislike the idea of playing it because it severely limits the power of the media throughout the game. I much prefer the "Flood Rule" which was from the 2nd edition FAQ where cards are added to the pool anytime they are left over after an election, and anytime an illegal card is flipped when the new board is being set up. A variant to the variant that reigns in the opinions a bit is the Modified Flood, where cards still go into the pool the same way, but opinions that are exactly the same "Nein Square Tomatoes" number 2, go into the discard pile. This keeps the pool a bit more manageable, but still allows media control to be powerful.
 
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Chris B
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I'm pretty sure the only time People's opinion cards should ever be discarded is when they come off of the National board (After someone knocks it off when winning an election). Any other time, the card is supposed to go into the exchange pool.

With 3rd edition, only six cards can be in the exchange pool at any one time. I'm very hesitant to play this way, as it's sometimes kind of iffy on what's available for exchanging anyway, why make it even tougher (and therefore, more luck dependant.)

Although, I suppose it could force you to plan your party platforms a little more toward the board, maybe it's not so much changing luck dependancy as much as shifting the focus more toward lining up your party platforms for upcoming elections, rather than relying on being able to swap out the opinions to match yourself.

Hmm. I think I've just talked myself into actually trying it to see if I like it.

Although that second rule change is just ass. I wouldn't want to try that one at all.
 
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L Rawles
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Under the shift-level rule (2nd edition), even where a "locked" card is replaced with its exact opposite, you still place the new card at the right and shift all others left, correct?

 
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Michael Webb
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Correct.
 
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Chris Trimmer
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Another vote against the rules changes.
 
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John Rodriguez
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Hmm... I'd *try* the first... the last one doesn't sound good though.
 
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Mike Bazynski
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it's been some time... does anyone have any opinions about the limited size of exchange pool, based on playing both ways?
 
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Jeff Hobbs
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Personally I have played v2 of the game once and have yet to play v3 of the game. However, I just read through the english version of the v2 rules that I downloaded from the files section here and the new Valley Games' English rules. There are a couple of rules that are different, but most of the stuff that has been talked about are more rules interpretation then rules changes.

Rules changes from v2 to v3:
1. In case of a tie in the bid for starting player:
v2. Each player tied rolls a die, high roll chooses starting player
v3. Each player tied bids again with an amount equal to or higher then their previous bid and high bid chooses the start player. If there is still a tie roll the die as in v2.

2. During the media marker phase when checking for media control to exchange a public opinion card:
v2. Start with the current elextion and go clockwise.
v3. Start with the last election in line and go counterclockwise.

Rules clarification from v2 to v3:
Although they may be changes from the way most people have played the game, the following are not really rule changes, but are more of a clarified interpretation of the v2 rules.

1. During the party platform conference when discarding and drawing new cards:
v2. The rules say that you have 3 cards and can discard any number, draw back up to 3, and play one if you wish. It does not say when you draw back up to 3 after you have played one, but reads as if you already have 3 cards when you discard.
v3. The rules say: if you have less then 3 draw up to 3, discard any number of cards, draw back up to 3, and play one if you wish.

2. During the end of the round when you are clearing the state board to put out the next state for the election:
Both rule books say that you clear the current round board and all markers are returned to their starting position. V3 just adds "as in 5.2.1" to the rules.
So both sets of rules could be interpreted that you place one meeting marker on the board when it is set up.

3. Also at the end of the round when clearing off the state board:
v2. Just says to clear off the board and return all markers to their stating posistion.
v3. Also says that all cards are sent to the discard pile.
The original v2 rules do not specifically say where the cards are placed when the board is cleared.
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Eric Sanders
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bazik123 wrote:
it's been some time... does anyone have any opinions about the limited size of exchange pool, based on playing both ways?

I made some comments on the small pool - and how I've adjusted to and am liking it - here:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/147699
 
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