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Dead of Winter: A Crossroads Game» Forums » Sessions

Subject: 1st play: Win for betrayer me, but some sore feelings. rss

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Eric Folsom
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Played my first game last night and it was 3 player. I was betrayer. I worked very hard not to help, but seem to be helping, had a gun the entire game and no one noticed that I never once used it (it was secret objective). We were on round 1-2 left, 1 moral, very do or die. I was last, if I had done nothing, we would barely win. I moved a survivor and got bit, which killed 1 of 2 of my survivors, winning me the game.
The two other players complained about it, more sore loser than I have seen them be in a while. They said they hated the betrayer being in the game and that the game is too hard to win, even nearly impossible to win with a betrayer.
However, as a betrayer, I have a unique perspective. If I were good with the same requirements to win (2 food, 2 gas, 1 gun), we would have won by a long shot (need more samples objective). Again, they would have won if I hadn't moved.

Even then, if I had moved, not got bit and attacked a survivor, I would have ONLY won because too many zombies would have been placed where I moved to, killing me, lowering moral to 0.

3 seems good and I think it's good with a betrayer, but my friends said they want to play coop next time and maybe never again with a betrayer.
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Greg
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Was it the other players first game too?
 
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Ken Dilloo
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Everything is relative to perception, and your perception is limited.
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It seems like it should be easier to sniff out a betrayer with three. I think they should stop whining and play better. Colby just posted some data, from playtests (going through iterations) and if memory serves, the betrayer only wins like 20% of the time.

I would call it a good win for you.
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Alex Nguyen
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In games like this or Pandemic I love losses-well I don't love them but I certainly don't mind them! It makes the wins so much more tasty.
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Simon Tan
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USP45 wrote:
In games like this or Pandemic I love losses-well I don't love them but I certainly don't mind them! It makes the wins so much more tasty.


To be fair, you do have a banner for a game where losing is !!FUN!!

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JonnyRotten
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If things are not going well in a game of DOW, it makes me extra suspicious of the other players.

A few more games in, and they will get better at sniffing it out...
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Brandon Alderman
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I have had a few games where even without a betrayer we would of lost. Sometimes thats how this game goes...you get a chain of crisis requiring the same thing or your searches for food end up pretty bad.

Luckily none of my players will tank the game as a loyal person just because they cant complete their objective (this would ruin the game for me). Most will give their effort to at least complete the main objective and even though still technically a loss if they dont complete their secret they are happy to of helped someone on the loyal side win.

Just maybe try full coop a game or two to help them get a strategy down before adding the betrayer and then they may be keen to add it back in.

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Jeremy
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I won't lose the game because I haven't completed my objective... however if losing the crisis won't lost us the game and there is a chance I will be able to complete my objective next turn damn right I'll tank. If it would lose the game for us I'll go ahead and complete it though.. that just seems petty.

I have been the betrayer in quite a few games (not just DoW) and no one else has ever won when I play. Sometimes because I just can't complete my secondary objective I don't win either, but more often than not I do. It's very very rare (I can think of 1 out of 15 times) that I have truly been fingered as a bad guy and it was far too late for them to do anything in that one game. Typically I am jokingly pointed at as a bad guy simply because I seem to draw it a lot, but it never goes beyond that. These are experienced board games who would normally whoop my ass if we were playing other games, but when I'm the bad guy... watch out.

I do have one funny story where I was board gaming with a group (I was the new guy... had been 3 or 4 weeks) and I correctly fingered the person (who's house it was) as the bad guy in a game of Resistance and then Shadows over Camelot. He flipped his shit, I couldn't stop laughing, but never went back. Some people are just really sore losers in betrayal games.
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Brad B
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I've played about a dozen games of DoW now and only 4 times has there been a betrayer in the game and never has the betrayer actually won. Everytime there was a betrayer, everyone lost.
 
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Jeff Finazzo
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Just wait until you aren't a betrayer, but you exile an innocent player to further your own ends. You don't need a betrayer in the game to have back-stabbing.

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Eric Folsom
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It was their first time for this game too. They're my main go-to guys for heavier games. We play a lot of coops and a lot of traitor games too. Battlestar Galactica is a favorite of ours.
I can't say I've never seen them as a sore loser, but it's rare. Hopefully after a coop one, they'll be more up for a normal game after that.

And yes, they should have figured out I was a traitor, one of them is usually able to figure me out the moment I even draw the card. One time I become a Cylon during the sleeper phase and that friend said "I'm sorry, but I already know you're a Cylon."

I agree that losing in a coop is actually fun. Of course winning is more fun, but if I beat a coop on my first time, that usually means I don't like it. I want a coop to be difficult to win together. That's why I love Pandemic (especially with OtB bad stuff thrown in) and Castle Panic with Wizard's tower, but don't really care for Defenders of the Realm or Police Precent, even though I love their theme.
 
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Greg
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So after only one play, your friends came to conclusion that it's too hard to win as a non-betrayer when there is a betrayer?





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I will say that on Long Missions if there is a betrayer, they have to be pretty bad for someone from the colony winning. Pretty darn bad.
 
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Frantic Ferret wrote:
Just wait until you aren't a betrayer, but you exile an innocent player to further your own ends. You don't need a betrayer in the game to have back-stabbing.



S'true. The last two games i've played I lost it for everyone because my own objectives contradicted the main mission (had to keep food everyone needed, etc.) I also played a game where I sacrificed my own objectives (using a food card I needed to keep for a win) so that everyone else could win.

Last night we played and the betrayor won easily because all the other players had selfish objectives.

 
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Vivian Yamamoto
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This was basically my experience tonight. We played three games in a row, first game betrayer rolled tooth on 5 / 7 times he rolled the exposure die which was just bad luck - he lost and there was nothing he could do.

Second game there was no betrayer but we were just overwhelmed by zombies and bad rolls getting bitten.

Third game was the "Winter has Come" scenario iirc - We had to last 8 rounds spending a fuel each round. I was the betrayer and calculated that I had the last turn of the last round of the game. Throughout the game I used the Fireman's ability to horde survivor cards ostensibly to take them out of the deck so we could draw more useful cards and not have to worry about useless mouths to feed. After two-ish hours of playing, with 5 morale going into the last turn everyone felt very confident, especially since I spent the entire game only being helpful. Then on my turn I played all my survivors (I had 8 at this point) and moved them all to the school, where we had left 4 zombies after taking all the cards. Even if I hadn't rolled a tooth this would guarantee that all four would die losing 4 morale (I did roll a tooth and chained through killing all 4, so after moving my remaining survivors into the school this actually did 8 morale damage). I then ate all the food to increase my dice forcing starvation to lower morale a ninth time and played some extra events to lose a tenth morale to the waste pile. With no opportunity for anyone else to do anything I was able to destroy 10 morale in one go and win the game. It felt pretty dumb. The worst was that around turn 6 one of the players was saying, "man we're doing pretty good - it would be pretty stupid if we somehow just lost to a traitor on the last turn or something."
 
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Derek VDG
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themaster408 wrote:
I agree that losing in a coop is actually fun. Of course winning is more fun, but if I beat a coop on my first time, that usually means I don't like it. I want a coop to be difficult to win together. That's why I love Pandemic (especially with OtB bad stuff thrown in) and Castle Panic with Wizard's tower, but don't really care for Defenders of the Realm or Police Precent, even though I love their theme.


Have you tried DotR using all 4 Dragon Generals? It makes the game significantly more difficult (especially the red dragon general).
 
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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miyamamo wrote:
This was basically my experience tonight. We played three games in a row, first game betrayer rolled tooth on 5 / 7 times he rolled the exposure die which was just bad luck - he lost and there was nothing he could do.

Second game there was no betrayer but we were just overwhelmed by zombies and bad rolls getting bitten.

Third game was the "Winter has Come" scenario iirc - We had to last 8 rounds spending a fuel each round. I was the betrayer and calculated that I had the last turn of the last round of the game. Throughout the game I used the Fireman's ability to horde survivor cards ostensibly to take them out of the deck so we could draw more useful cards and not have to worry about useless mouths to feed. After two-ish hours of playing, with 5 morale going into the last turn everyone felt very confident, especially since I spent the entire game only being helpful. Then on my turn I played all my survivors (I had 8 at this point) and moved them all to the school, where we had left 4 zombies after taking all the cards. Even if I hadn't rolled a tooth this would guarantee that all four would die losing 4 morale (I did roll a tooth and chained through killing all 4, so after moving my remaining survivors into the school this actually did 8 morale damage). I then ate all the food to increase my dice forcing starvation to lower morale a ninth time and played some extra events to lose a tenth morale to the waste pile. With no opportunity for anyone else to do anything I was able to destroy 10 morale in one go and win the game. It felt pretty dumb. The worst was that around turn 6 one of the players was saying, "man we're doing pretty good - it would be pretty stupid if we somehow just lost to a traitor on the last turn or something."


I'm not sure what you mean by "chained through" killing your survivors.

You had 8 survivors and the school holds 4, right? So let's say you moved 3 survivors there and none of them rolled the tooth. Then, you tried to move a 4th there and you did roll a tooth, meaning that he died and the zombie sickness spread to the school. So the survivor with the lowest influence at the school had a choice to make -- kill himself or risk spreading the zombie sickness. Since you wanted it to spread, you probably would have rolled the die. 50/50 chance of him dying and spreading the sickness to the next person. Are you saying that you did that roll three times and the people at the school all contracted the sickness?

Then you still had 4 more survivors, so you moved them to the school, and they were killed by 4 overruns?
 
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Greg
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randomlife wrote:
miyamamo wrote:
This was basically my experience tonight. We played three games in a row, first game betrayer rolled tooth on 5 / 7 times he rolled the exposure die which was just bad luck - he lost and there was nothing he could do.

Second game there was no betrayer but we were just overwhelmed by zombies and bad rolls getting bitten.

Third game was the "Winter has Come" scenario iirc - We had to last 8 rounds spending a fuel each round. I was the betrayer and calculated that I had the last turn of the last round of the game. Throughout the game I used the Fireman's ability to horde survivor cards ostensibly to take them out of the deck so we could draw more useful cards and not have to worry about useless mouths to feed. After two-ish hours of playing, with 5 morale going into the last turn everyone felt very confident, especially since I spent the entire game only being helpful. Then on my turn I played all my survivors (I had 8 at this point) and moved them all to the school, where we had left 4 zombies after taking all the cards. Even if I hadn't rolled a tooth this would guarantee that all four would die losing 4 morale (I did roll a tooth and chained through killing all 4, so after moving my remaining survivors into the school this actually did 8 morale damage). I then ate all the food to increase my dice forcing starvation to lower morale a ninth time and played some extra events to lose a tenth morale to the waste pile. With no opportunity for anyone else to do anything I was able to destroy 10 morale in one go and win the game. It felt pretty dumb. The worst was that around turn 6 one of the players was saying, "man we're doing pretty good - it would be pretty stupid if we somehow just lost to a traitor on the last turn or something."


I'm not sure what you mean by "chained through" killing your survivors.

You had 8 survivors and the school holds 4, right? So let's say you moved 3 survivors there and none of them rolled the tooth. Then, you tried to move a 4th there and you did roll a tooth, meaning that he died and the zombie sickness spread to the school. So the survivor with the lowest influence at the school had a choice to make -- kill himself or risk spreading the zombie sickness. Since you wanted it to spread, you probably would have rolled the die. 50/50 chance of him dying and spreading the sickness to the next person. Are you saying that you did that roll three times and the people at the school all contracted the sickness?

Then you still had 4 more survivors, so you moved them to the school, and they were killed by 4 overruns?


I wouldn't trust someone with 8 survivors anyway. I would hope that the other players learned a lesson in not letting someone gain that many survivors.
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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Right, there were a couple of things that should have been red flags.

- Don't let one player accumulate too many cards. And since they knew that you were collecting survivors, even though you justified it, they should be aware that is especially dangerous if you turned out to be a betrayer.

- Don't let the wastepile get so big at the end of the game. You mentioned that you played some extra event cards (event? Hmm, those don't go to the wastepile. Maybe you meant some other cards.) to get the number up to 10. But how close to 10 was it already? We know you had several outsider cards in hand, but did you also have a bunch of food, medicine, etc.? Again, they shouldn't have let you accumulate that many cards.

And actually, when possible, I recommend publicly doing the last player calculation at the beginning of the game so that everyone is aware who the last player will be. Everyone should keep an extra careful eye on that player throughout the game. If that person is a betrayer, they will have an opportunity to do BAD THINGS without the risk of exile.

In your session, if everyone had been aware that you were going to be the last player, and then you started hoarding outsider cards, they should have put a stop to that.

And I'm still interested in how you killed 8 of your own survivors by sending them to the school. I couldn't quite follow your explanation.
 
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David Peck
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randomlife wrote:
And actually, when possible, I recommend publicly doing the last player calculation at the beginning of the game so that everyone is aware who the last player will be. Everyone should keep an extra careful eye on that player throughout the game. If that person is a betrayer, they will have an opportunity to do BAD THINGS without the risk of exile.


And the person with the double turn the round-before-last, and the one before that, probably in a 6-7 round game.
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