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Subject: Simultaneous Movement rss

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Jim Cote
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I read the quick rules, and I've watched several online videos. What I don't understand is the specifics of the timing between the offensive and defensive flicks.

+ Does the defender need to wait until after the attacker flicks? What happens if they flick at the same time?

+ Does the attacker need to physically get out of the way if the defender wants to make a flick? In other words, can he take a quick second shot blocking the defender's flick with his arm/body?

+ If there are men from both sides in motion, who benefits from accidental contact? Contact with the ball? Is the answer the same if the attacker flicks WHILE the defensive flick is still moving?
 
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Mike Sherwood
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ekted wrote:
I read the quick rules, and I've watched several online videos. What I don't understand is the specifics of the timing between the offensive and defensive flicks.

+ Does the defender need to wait until after the attacker flicks? What happens if they flick at the same time?

+ Does the attacker need to physically get out of the way if the defender wants to make a flick? In other words, can he take a quick second shot blocking the defender's flick with his arm/body?

+ If there are men from both sides in motion, who benefits from accidental contact? Contact with the ball? Is the answer the same if the attacker flicks WHILE the defensive flick is still moving?


I learned that the defender can only flick once the attacker's piece has stopped moving.
 
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Adrian
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The way we play is the defender can take his defensive flick as soon as the attacker flicks, even if the ball is moving as long as the playing piece doesn't touch the ball. If the defending player figure touches the ball or the attacking player, the attacker can claim "Back" in which case the defender must move his player back to its original position and move the ball back to the spot where the defending player made contact.
You cannot block your opponent around the table, if this occurs an indirect free flick should be awarded.
After the attacker contacts the ball he can make contact again whilst the ball is still moving and doesn't have to wait for the defender to play a defensive "blocking flick". This can result in some exciting play in the shooting area when the attacker shoots on the moving ball whilst the defender scrambles between trying to make blocking flicks and defending the goal with the goalie.
 
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Jim Cote
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I skimmed through the long rules here. Is the following statement correct:

If the defnder makes a defensive flick while things are in motion, but the offensive flick results in a change of possession (attacker missed ball, etc.), then the defensive flick is considered to be the defender's offensive flick. Since this flick would normally not touch anything, it would cause another change of possession giving the previous attacker possession again.
 
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Adrian
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That can be tricky but again we would play this as read so possession would go back to the attacking team. I've always used the old Subbuteo advanced rules which came with my set when I received it in 1977, they are more deatiled than the quick or basic rules but not as in depth as the official FISTF rules. Any ambiguity is sorted in the spirit of fair play between the players.

http://www.subbuteo365.com/advancedrules.htm
http://hugues.subbuteoclub.com/retro.shtml
 
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Jim Cote
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After playing for real, I have a ton of questions. These are the ones related to this topic. What do you do in these cases? For the following time graphs, use this key:

A = attacker flicks
D = defender flicks
- = movement (player or ball)
B = ball hit
X = collision (improper contact of players/ball)

So this graph:

A------B--
B-----------

...shows the attacker flicking, hitting the ball and quickly stopping. The ball moves for a while afterwards, then stops.

Q1 Defensive flick hits attacker in motion:

A-------X
D---X


Q2 Defensive flick hits attacker in motion after ball hit:

A-------B---X
B----------
D-------X


Q3 Defensive flick (after ball hit) hits attacker in motion:

A-------B------X
B----------
D---X


Q4 Defensive flick hits ball in motion:

A-------B---
B------X
D----------X

Q5 Defensive flick (after ball hit) hits ball in motion:

A-------B---
B------X
D---X

I would assume that the player who flicks during motion is always going to be at fault, but this also allows the other player to abuse this rule by targetting the "offender" with a quick flick.

Also, what if the attacking flick misses, fouls, or results in a change of possession, but the defender made his flick before the outcome is known? Original attacker maintains possession, right?
 
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Adrian
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Ok, here's what we would do in the various situations.

Q1: The attacker can return both his and the defenders figure back to the original positions and the defender is not allowed to retake his defensive flick.

Q2 & 3: Play on if there is accidental contact, if the defender is deliberately trying to hit the attacking figure, then I would pay a free kick with perhaps one warning first. Just as in real soccer deliberate contact is not allowed and is penalised.

Q4 & 5: The attacker can return both figures and the ball back to their original positions and the defender is not allowed to retake his defensive flick. Again, if this is being done deliberately then a free kick should be awarded.

Yes, if the defender flicks before the outcome of the defensive flick is known he takes the risk of maybe losing possession from a poor attacking flick. If the attacker fouls however I would pay a free to the defending side whether they have defensively flicked or not. We often let this go however, and allow the defender to take possession anyway. Depends on how strict you want to be and how much you want the game to flow without being to stop-start. In addition we always allow the attacker to play advantage if he receives a foul.
 
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Kevin Nieman
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ekted wrote:
I read the quick rules, and I've watched several online videos. What I don't understand is the specifics of the timing between the offensive and defensive flicks.

+ Does the defender need to wait until after the attacker flicks? What happens if they flick at the same time?


The rules, as I understand them, are that the defender cannot make a defensive flick until the attacker's figure touches the ball. Once that happens, the defender can flick away.

ekted wrote:
+ Does the attacker need to physically get out of the way if the defender wants to make a flick? In other words, can he take a quick second shot blocking the defender's flick with his arm/body?


You may not impede the other player in any way. Accidents happen, but deliberate attempts to stop a player from flicking are illegal. That's why you will see many players with their non-flicking hand behind their back.

As for the attacker taking a quick second flick, (I assume you meant "flick" because a "shot" implies a potential save or change of possession,) in MOST cases, the attacker does not have to wait for the defender to make a defensive flick to flick again. I've played many games on defense where I've let the attacker flick down the pitch down to my defensive figures before I make a single flick.

ekted wrote:
+ If there are men from both sides in motion, who benefits from accidental contact? Contact with the ball? Is the answer the same if the attacker flicks WHILE the defensive flick is still moving?


Generally, the attacker benefits from most accidental contact. The defender cannot strike the ball if it's in motion, nor can a defender's figure strike any attacking figure either whether the attacking figure is in motion or not. Meanwhile, once the attacker's figure hits the ball, it can plow into any of the defender's figures legally. That's one way of using an offensive flick strategically.

Hope this helps. I encourage you to read the FISTF rules. They are long and laborious, but they will answer many of your questions.

Happy flicking!
 
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Mike Ewer
United States
Grand Rapids
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FISTF Rules vary from some published Subbuteo rules. Here's the FISTF variation:
ekted wrote:

Q1 Defensive flick hits attacker in motion:

A-------X
D---X


If the ball was stationary at the time the two figures collided, the rule is like "pass interference" in gridiron football. The D goes back to his original place, the A stays at the point of contact and gets his flick count reset to what it was before he flicked. So if this was the third flick, he still gets it but from much closer.

If the ball was rolling at the time of contact it is a free kick.
ekted wrote:

Q2 Defensive flick hits attacker in motion after ball hit:

A-------B---X
B----------
D-------X


If the ball was still rolling, it's a free kick, if it had stopped, it's a "back". This is no different to Q1 in FISTF Rules logic. Except that the attacker was not impeded on his way to completing a touch on the ball, so there's no deduction of his flick count. If he just touched the ball on his 2nd flick, he is now on his 3rd.
ekted wrote:

Q3 Defensive flick (after ball hit) hits attacker in motion:

A-------B------X
B----------
D---X


How does this differ from Q2?
ekted wrote:

Q4 Defensive flick hits ball in motion:

A-------B---
B------X
D----------X


This is a free kick. Rule of thumb is: If the ball's moving, it's a free kick.
ekted wrote:

Q5 Defensive flick (after ball hit) hits ball in motion:

A-------B---
B------X
D---X


Again, not sure how this differs from Q4.
ekted wrote:

I would assume that the player who flicks during motion is always going to be at fault, but this also allows the other player to abuse this rule by targetting the "offender" with a quick flick.

The only way the defender is not at fault is if the figure achieves a stationary position before the ball or attacker reaches him. Like a defensive move in basketball.
ekted wrote:

Also, what if the attacking flick misses, fouls, or results in a change of possession, but the defender made his flick before the outcome is known? Original attacker maintains possession, right?
Yes. Although some friendly players if the timing was so tight will switch possession to the defender.

Basically the foul rules are summarised thus:

If the defender is still moving at the time of contact, it is a foul. If the defender has reached a stationary position, it is NO foul.

If it's still a foul:

If the ball is moving, it's a free kick at the point of contact.
If the attacker hits ANY stationary player and then the ball, it's a free kick at the point of contact.

All remaining fouls are "backs".

If the defender interferes with the progress of the flicked player, it is a "moving back" where the defender returns to his original position but the attacker remains at point of contact with his flick count deducted one if impeded on the way to the ball.

If any player hits a stationary player, it's a standard "back" where everyone returns to their original position.

The FISTF rulebook is pretty tough, when you break down the logic to a flowchart like above, it's a bit easier to keep in your head.
 
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Mike Ewer
United States
Grand Rapids
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I understand the apparent duplication now. Q2 and Q4 are illegal in principle unless the flick is owed from the previous touch. The defensive block window is between ball touches by an attacking figure. The rules do not differentiate so the answers for the "after ball hit" or "before ball hit" are the same, as long as it was an allowed defensive flick.

However old Subbuteo rules allow a block as soon as the attacking figure is played, so make sure you know what ruleset you are playing.
 
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