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Subject: Fuel Coupling Failure Nav Card rss

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Ralph Stratford
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In the current game the SS Walden drew the Fuel Coupling Failure Nav Card in Rim Space. Lucky the SS Walden had a Part so could choose Option 1 (Option 2, which allows a ship to keep flying but for each sector moved one Fuel must be discarded, could not have been chosen as she had no Fuel having just used her last one to initiate a full burn in a desperate attempt to get to Meridian).

The thought crossed my mind that if a ship has no Fuel and no Parts, this Nav Card does not work! You would not be allowed to choose either option because you cannot meet the requirements of either.

The same could occur if you say had 1 Fuel and chose Option 2. You could move one more Sector but then you would have no more Fuel to discard if your Ship still have movement left.

I would think that the best way to resolve this is to say that a Ship must end its Turn if it cannot fulfill the requirements of this Nav Card at all (or as soon as it can no longer fulfill Option 2 if it could and did choose this). This isn't one of the possible outcomes but makes the most sense to deal with this Nav Card in these circumstances.

Any thoughts?
 
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Russell Anderson
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Its pretty simple. You can always select Option 2. If you have no more fuel, you can't move any more... I don't see the rules issue?
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Ralph Stratford
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But the Rules on page 7 say that if the chosen option's final result is Keep Flying, you may move again and drawn another Nav Card up to your Drive Core's maximum Range.

However, this is not possible because as soon as you move one more Sector (which the Rules say you can do) you don't have the 1 Fuel you are required to discard, so you would have moved and not be able to comply with the Nav Card's conditions for continuing with your Fly Action.

It's the same as saying I don't have a Part to spend, but I'll choose Option 1 anyway and then not Keep Flying as I have no Part. This is also not possible because you would not be able to comply with Option 1's condition, just like you can't choose Option 2 if you have no Fuel.

This is a contradiction between the Nav Card and the Rules. The Nav Card should be clarified to state "Keep Flying if you have Fuel to discard, otherwise Full Stop". Then you can always choose Option 2 and either Full Stop or Keep Flying will be the outcome.
 
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George Krubski
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You're really splitting hairs here. I think we can all agree on the intent of the card.

While I agree that the card deviates from established terminology, without the card in front of me, I'd guess that it was for space (ie, a more correct version would be too long to fit).

This wouldn't be the first example of that and as long as the intent is clear -- and I believe it is -- what's the big deal?
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J M
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Cards contradict the rules a lot, it's one of the purposes of the cards. Bester doesn't get to roll thrillin' heroics, in direct contradiction to the rule book. I mean it says right on his card.

If you have no part, you choose option two. Congratulations, you may now move one more space for each fuel you spend, ie zero.
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richard spangle
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I think the card is written very simply for space reasons, but the meaning seems clear.
if you have no parts, you cannot use Option 1.
going to Option 2, you spend what fuel you can to Keep Flying. if that fuel is Zero (0), then you are not going anywhere.

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J M
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No, option two is your mandatory choice. You "keep flying" and pay zero fuel to move zero further spaces. You can mosey on your next turn, but technically you still chose option two.
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J M
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You choose option two. You can't ever not choose an option. Option two is just an empty option, but you still take it. I hope that makes sense.
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Carl Bussema
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Yeah, it's very very wrong to say you can't choose option 2. On every card with a choice, you MUST select one of the options and do what it says.

So you choose option 2. Great. Do what it says:

* Keep flying: So we can continue moving up to our range based on our drive core and any applicable modifiers.
* Spend 1 fuel for each additional sector: If you want to move, which is not required, you would have to spend fuel. If you have no fuel, then you simply will "choose" not to move.
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Games Afoot
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aka Tankboy wrote:
From a relative Noob to the game, its pretty cut and dried. Your only option, since you have no parts and cannot pick Option 1, and are now out of fuel, so Option 2 is off the table as well, so MOSEY along now, nothing to see here, is your only option.


According to the rules on page 20 of the base game:

Quote:
no Fuel = no Go
Run out of gas, you’re driftin’...
Always take a few more Fuel than
you think you need for a trip to
handle emergency course changes
or unexpected opportunities.


So don't ever run out of fuel. If you blow the coupler and you are low on fuel, choose to stop your movement, wait until your next turn and mosey.

T
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Carl Bussema
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If you suggest that "neither choice" is legal in one scenario, then when I encounter the Reavers next, I'm also going to select "neither choice," because they're both worse than doing nothing.
 
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Gale Force Nine LLC
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Correct. If you don’t have any parts, you are choosing Option 2, but since you do not have anymore fuel, you are not moving.
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Ralph Stratford
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I don't disagree that Option 2 is the choice you have if you have no Parts and that if you also have no Fuel you can't keep Flying. I just think the Card is not consistent with the Rules and clarifying the Card would help
because...

Let's say I have no Parts but I have Fuel, can I still choose Option 1 and then not keep Flying? This is exactly on par with choosing Option 2 with no Fuel and then not keeping on Flying.

It effectively means that when you draw this Nav Card you should be allowed to always choose either Option but if you don't have the required Part or Fuel (as applicable), you stop Flying.

EDIT:

Also lets say I have no Fuel but I have Parts. Can I still choose Option 2? It seems to me that in that situation I have to choose Option 1 and spend a Part as Option 1 does not allow you the choice saving your Part but not continuing to Fly. You have to spend the Part and then you can choose to continue flying or stopping.


 
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J M
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It is consistent with the rules. If during normal flying you draw a Keep Flying card and you've used your entire movement, you move no further. Option two on this card is mechanically the same as reducing your remaining movement to zero, "keep flying" for zero more spaces.
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George Krubski
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I think there's some nuance that folks are forgetting. Each option is really 2 parts. Stripping out details:

OPTION A:

1) Meet requirements to...
2) Keep Flying.

OPTION B:

1) Keep Flying, but...
2) There are additional requirements.

The intent of the card is that both options end in a Keep Flying result. If you chose to end your Move action, that's one thing, but it's different from a Full Stop with respect to the rules.

Also worth noting - there's at least one Supply Card that allows you to ignore Breakdowns, so you automatically pick the first choice.
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George Krubski
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Dalek1 wrote:
I don't disagree that Option 2 is the choice you have if you have no Parts and that if you also have no Fuel you can't keep Flying. I just think the Card is not consistent with the Rules and clarifying the Card would help
because...


As noted multiple times, it's consistent with the rules. I'm not sure what clarification you're looking for, but a) there's no room on the card, and b) additional clarification might conflict with the rules.

Dalek1 wrote:
Let's say I have no Parts but I have Fuel, can I still choose Option 1 and then not keep Flying? This is exactly on par with choosing Option 2 with no Fuel and then not keeping on Flying.


If you want to pretend in your head that you picked Option 1, sure, why not? But if you're following the rules, no, you can't.

Dalek1 wrote:

It effectively means that when you draw this Nav Card you should be allowed to always choose either Option but if you don't have the required Part or Fuel (as applicable), you stop Flying.


That may be the net effect, but that only accounts for certain circumstances. You are limited the phrasing of the card to one specific circumstance, but there are other, equally valid options that would be impacted if it were phrased differently.

Dalek1 wrote:

Also lets say I have no Fuel but I have Parts. Can I still choose Option 2? It seems to me that in that situation I have to choose Option 1 and spend a Part as Option 1 does not allow you the choice saving your Part but not continuing to Fly. You have to spend the Part and then you can choose to continue flying or stopping.


See, right here, you've hit on one of the exact other valid options. If you have no Fuel but 1 Part, you can certainly pick Option 2, because it doesn't REQUIRE you to have Fuel.

Additionally, if you've arrived at your destination with Parts but no Fuel, you would probably pick Option 2.
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Paul Sauberer
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Dalek1 wrote:
I don't disagree that Option 2 is the choice you have if you have no Parts and that if you also have no Fuel you can't keep Flying. I just think the Card is not consistent with the Rules and clarifying the Card would help
because...

Let's say I have no Parts but I have Fuel, can I still choose Option 1 and then not keep Flying? This is exactly on par with choosing Option 2 with no Fuel and then not keeping on Flying.

It effectively means that when you draw this Nav Card you should be allowed to always choose either Option but if you don't have the required Part or Fuel (as applicable), you stop Flying.

EDIT:

Also lets say I have no Fuel but I have Parts. Can I still choose Option 2? It seems to me that in that situation I have to choose Option 1 and spend a Part as Option 1 does not allow you the choice saving your Part but not continuing to Fly. You have to spend the Part and then you can choose to continue flying or stopping.




You don't have to use your entire range on a full burn. You can choose to stop at any time. Option 2 doesn't negate that at all. It just makes the choice to keep flying have an extra requirement. If you can't meet it you have to stop flying, just as if you choose to stop flying even before you have gone the maximum range.

The card is a caveat to the move again rule just like the maximum range is. You must stop flying if you have reached your maximum range, even if the nav card has a "Keep Flying" result. With this card you have to stop flying if you don't have any fuel. The card establishes your fuel capacity as an upper limit to your flying, similar too how range does. You also don't have to use fuel to keep flying. You can stop even if you have fuel remaining.
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Christopher Wildi
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Maybe this is a blueblack/whitegold dress but I am really struggling to see how this card is ambiguous.
There are a lot of really fun rule combos in this game that require serious thought, common sense and thematic context. This is not one of them.
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Brett Thomason
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Fuel is not a requirement to keep flying with option 2. You can fly up to your max range even if you have no fuel left, you just have to lose fuel every sector if you have it.
 
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Jeff
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Hmmm... I see where you're coming from, I believe, but the way I read that the discarding of fuel is a requirement to move (i.e. if the discard can't happen because I have no more fuel, then I'm done for the turn). Mosey becomes your only option next turn.
 
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Dave Roy
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Not to mention the fact that Gale Force 9 actually answered this earlier in the thread, agreeing with your take.
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Brett Thomason
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Missed Gale Force's post. A better way to word it would of been 'you must discard one fuel for each additional space you move'
 
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George Krubski
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The current phrasing is more consistent with the rules. On Nav cards, the word "must" is used only with respect to moving ships.
 
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Dangerous Partners
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Weaselboy wrote:
Missed Gale Force's post. A better way to word it would of been 'you must discard one fuel for each additional space you move'

Clutching for straws there mate , I'm sure that most players whose first language isn't English still understood what it says ... although you do have the excuse of speaking Strine whistle.
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Josh D
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gwek wrote:
The current phrasing is more consistent with the rules. On Nav cards, the word "must" is used only with respect to moving ships.

I would prefer the use of the term "spend". Generally speaking I consider "spend" to equate with something you are required to do (and you can't choose the option if you don't have it), and "discard" only has an effect if you have the thing that is to be discarded (with no adverse consequence unless it says 'discard X or face consequence Y').
 
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