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Subject: Custom Hero - Miracle Mina (untested, feedback needed) rss

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Thomas Arnold
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Hello there,

This is my first attempt at a custom hero, and it is not tested yet. I want to humbly ask for some help, opinions, balacing and other ideas before I put this on the testing ground. Some of you sentinels fans are very good at spotting abvious errors and problems.

We already have some scientists in the Sentinels world, but no one with crazy chemistry and potentially powerful potions. This spot is now filled with Micacle Mina!

Main idea: Every card has some small Mix effect at the bottom. Put Vial cards in play, put cards under the vials so the Mix effects are still visible, and throw the vials at your enemies or friends. You can fill the vials slowly with selected cards, of use random cards from the deck and hope for the best.


Miracle Mina
HP: 25
Base power: Mixology
Put a card from your hand and up to 2 cards from the top of your deck under a Vial card with the Mix effects still visible.


Equipment, Vial (Qty: 12)
----------------------------
Small Saphire Vials (Qty: 2)
- Put 3 charge counters on this card. There can be up to 1 card under this card.
Power: Select 1 target. This target regains 1 HP. Apply the Mix effects of all cards under this card on this target. Remove 1 charge counter from this card. If there are 0 charge counters left, destroy this card and all cards under this card.

Small Ruby Vials (Qty: 2)
- Put 3 charge counters on this card. There can be up to 1 card under this card.
Power: Select 1 target. Deal this target 1 projectile damage. Apply the Mix effects of all cards under this card on this target. Remove 1 charge counter from this card. If there are 0 charge counters left, destroy this card and all cards under this card.

Medium Saphire Vials (Qty: 2)
- Put 2 charge counters on this card. There can be up to 2 cards under this card.
Power: Select 1 target. This target regains 1 HP. Apply the Mix effects of all cards under this card on this target. Remove 1 charge counter from this card. If there are 0 charge counters left, destroy this card and all cards under this card.

Medium Ruby Vials (Qty: 2)
- Put 2 charge counters on this card. There can be up to 2 cards under this card.
Power: Select 1 target. Deal this target 1 projectile damage. Apply the Mix effects of all cards under this card on this target. Remove 1 charge counter from this card. If there are 0 charge counters left, destroy this card and all cards under this card.

Large Saphire Vial (Qty: 2)
- Put 1 charge counter on this card. There can be up to 3 cards under this card.
Power: Select 1 target. This target regains 1 HP. Apply the Mix effects of all cards under this card on this target. Remove 1 charge counter from this card. If there are 0 charge counters left, destroy this card and all cards under this card.

Large Ruby Vial (Qty: 2)
- Put 1 charge counter on this card. There can be up to 3 cards under this card.
Power: Select 1 target. Deal this target 1 projectile damage. Apply the Mix effects of all cards under this card on this target. Remove 1 charge counter from this card. If there are 0 charge counters left, destroy this card and all cards under this card.

Equipment, Catalysis, Limited (Qty: 4)
----------------------------
Dangerous chemicals (Qty: 2)
- When this card is put into play, destroy all other Catalysis cards. Increase damage dealt by Miracle Mina by 1. Decrease healing by Miracle Mina by 1.
Power: Destroy this card.

Safe chemicals (Qty: 2)
- When this card is put into play, destroy all other Catalysis cards. Decrease damage dealt by Miracle Mina by 1. Increase healing by Miracle Mina by 1.
Power: Destroy this card.


Ongoing, Limited (Qty: 9)
----------------------------
Sorted Ingredients (Qty: 3)
- At the start of your turn, you may reveal the top card of your deck, then replace or discard it.

Genius at Work (Qty: 3)
- You may use an additional power during your power phase.

Experiment Preperation (Qty: 3)
- You may play a Vial. You may put a card from your hand or the top of your deck under a Vial card with the Mix effects still visible.


One-shot (Qty: 15)
----------------------------
"When did I do this?" (Qty: 3)
- Put a Vial from your hand or your trash into play. Put cards from the top of your deck under the Vial up to its capacity, with the Mix effects still visible. Use the power of the Vial.

"What is this?" (Qty: 3)
- Draw up to 3 cards. You may play a Vial now.

"Why don't we have more of this?" (Qty: 3)
- Put 1 charge counter on up to 2 vial cards.

"Where did I put this?" (Qty: 4)
- Reveal cards from the top of your deck until until you reveal a Vial, put it into play, and discard the other revealed cards.

"Who wants some of this?" (Qty: 2)
- You may use the power of every Vial card in your power phase. You may not use any other powers.


Mix-effects:

One of these effects appears at the bottom section of every card in this deck, with the prefix "Mix: ". They will not be evenly distributed, the strongest effects will only appear very rarely. Ideas for effects:

Deal the target 1 / 2 / 3 fire / toxic damage.
Deal 2 other targets from the deck of the target 1 / 2 fire / toxic damage.
Decrease damage dealt by the target by 1 until the start of your next turn.
Increase damage dealt to the target by 1 until the start of your next turn.
Damage dealt to the target is irreducible until the start of your next turn.
Destroy 1 ongoing or environment card from the deck of the target.

The target regains 1 / 2 / 3 HP.
Increase damage dealt by the target by 1 until the start of your next turn.
Decrease damage dealt to the target by 1 until the start of your next turn.
Damage dealt by the target is irreducible until the start of your next turn.
Put the top card of the target's deck into play.




That's it. I am aware that some combinations of Mix effects can add up to pretty unbalanced results, and all cards could need some more creativity, both in names and effects. Ideas are highly appreciated!

Thanks for every feedback!
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Jonathan Richardson
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I think this is an interesting idea.

Although putting charges on cards seems kind of clunky, and is a mechanic that sentinels doesn't make use of, there's no real reason you can't use it.

For starters, a lot of your text wording is going to need cleaning up. I'll go through and reword them to line up with the proper wording and terminology present in the game.

I'll also see about brainstorming some ideas for cards and how they all work together. I'd also like to run a few name changes for some of cards by you if your not to attached to the ones you have.

As I said, it's an interesting idea and one I think worth developing.

(Edit) I just remembered that Setback has tokens. blush
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Geoff B.
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This is a pretty cool idea.

Some things at first glance:

1. Are all the Mix texts going to have 2 sets of text? You have damage and support effects on mix text and on Vial powers, but the cards are almost always put under the vials randomly, so you either will need 2 sets of mix text and different vials activate the different text, or you will have vials that deal damage and heal, to pretty much negate the vials overall effect.

2. The text is all longer than can fit comfortably on cards. The official decks don't go over ~250 characters+spaces. when you start getting over that amount the text ends up smaller and harder to read and process. You will also have to fit mix effect text in, which will count towards that text or replace the flavor text, which is one of the cool parts of the game. Not that there isn't room for a deck with no flavor text, but it is a trade off.

3. The vials need instructions for what to do when they are destroyed by other forces than their own text, otherwise they will leave cards under them in play.


Suggestions:

1. I would ditch the charges. For the smaller ones you could make them not destroy themselves, and the big ones could activate their text when destroyed, with a power that destroyed the card on the card.

Ex:

There can only be 1 card under this card.
When this card is destroyed, put any card under it into the trash.
Power: Select a hero target, apply the blue mix effect of the card under this card to that target, then you may put that card in the trash.


That's 242 characters+spaces, gives you a consistent power that doesn't consume the mix effect but if you want clears it so you can put a different one in its place. There isn't a very good reason to put counters on, or destroy a card that is giving you a rather weak power, which that will. Blue Mix Text would be helpful, while red would be attack, just for an example.

Then for a big one go a different route:

There can be up to 3 cards under this card.
When this card is destroyed, pick a non-hero target and apply the Red mix text of every card under this card to that target, then put those cards in the trash.
Power: Destroy this card.


That's 227 characters+spaces, and only loses the card under it when it enters play.


As a side note, I would consider giving an option to see what you put under a card or putting more under without seeing what they say.

For example:
Mixology
Power: Put a card from your hand under a Vial card, or put the top 3 cards of your deck under Vial cards without looking at them.

That way you have an option to load up your vials without knowing exactly what they will do when you trigger them.

I don't know if you want that at all. Could be fun.

For other vials you could have a vial that destroyed itself, had only 1 card under it but apply that effect to all non-hero or all hero targets, or one that had 2 effects and affected 2 targets, or even 1 that helped a hero target and hurt a villain.
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Jonathan Richardson
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OK, here's the stage 1 clean up.

I changed the words charge counters to tokens like Setback.

__________

Miracle Mina
HP: 25

Mixology
Power: Put 1 card from your hand and up to 2 cards from the top of your deck under a Vial card with the Mix effects still visible.


Equipment, Vial (Qty: 12)
----------------------------

Small Sapphire Vial (Qty: 2)
Equipment, Vial

When this card enters play, put 3 tokens on it.
Power: 1 target regains 1 HP, applying the Mix effect of all cards under this card. Remove 1 token from this card. If there are 0 tokens left, destroy this card and all cards under it.
Only 1 card may be under this card at a time.

Small Ruby Vial (Qty: 2)
Equipment, Vial

When this card enters play, put 3 tokens on it.
Power: Miracle Mina deals 1 target 1 Projectile damage, applying the Mix effect of all cards under this card. Remove 1 token from this card. If there are 0 tokens left, destroy this card and all cards under it.
Only 1 card may be under this card at a time.

Medium Sapphire Vial (Qty: 2)
Equipment, Vial

When this card enters play, put 2 tokens on it.
Power: 1 target regains 1 HP, applying the Mix effect of all cards under this card. Remove 1 token from this card. Remove 1 counter from this card. If there are 0 tokens left, destroy this card and all cards under it.
Only 1 card may be under this card at a time.

Medium Ruby Vial (Qty: 2)
Equipment, Vial

When this card enters play, put 2 tokens on it.
Power: Miracle Mina deals 1 target 1 Projectile damage, applying the Mix effect of all cards under this card. Remove 1 token from this card. If there are 0 tokens left, destroy this card and all cards under it.
Only 1 card may be under this card at a time.

Large Sapphire Vial (Qty: 2)
Equipment, Vial

When this card enters play, put 1 token on it.
Power: 1 target regains 1 HP, applying the Mix effect of all cards under this card. Remove 1 token from this card. If there are 0 tokens left, destroy this card and all cards under it.
Only 1 card may be under this card at a time.

Large Ruby Vial (Qty: 2)
Equipment, Vial

When this card enters play, put 1 token on it.
Power: Miracle Mina deals 1 target 1 Projectile damage, applying the Mix effect of all cards under this card. Remove 1 token from this card. If there are 0 tokens left, destroy this card and all cards under it.
Only 1 card may be under this card at a time.


Equipment, Catalyst (Qty: 4)
----------------------------

Dangerous Chemicals (Qty: 2)
Equipment, Catalyst, Limited

When this card enters play, destroy all other Catalyst cards.
Increase damage dealt by Miracle Mina by 1.
Whenever Miracle Mina would cause a target to regain HP, reduce the amount by 1.
Power: Destroy this card.

Stabilizing Agent (Qty: 2)
Equipment, Catalyst, Limited

When this card enters play, destroy all other Catalyst cards.
Reduce damage dealt by Miracle Mina by 1.
Whenever Miracle Mina would cause a target to regain HP, increase the amount by 1.
Power: Destroy this card.


Ongoing (Qty: 9)
----------------------------

Sorted Ingredients (Qty: 3)
Ongoing, Limited

At the start of your turn, you may reveal the top card of your deck, then replace or discard it.

Genius at Work (Qty: 3)
Ongoing, Limited

You may use an additional power during your power phase.

Experiment Preparation (Qty: 3)
Ongoing, Limited

At the start of your turn, you may play a Vial. You may then put a card from your hand or the top of your deck under a Vial card with the Mix effects still visible.


One-Shot (Qty: 15)
----------------------------

"When did I mix this?" (Qty: 3)
One-Shot

Put a Vial from your hand or your trash into play. Put cards from the top of your deck under the Vial up to its capacity, with the Mix effects still visible. Use the Vial's power.

"What is this?" (Qty: 3)
One-Shot

Draw up to 3 cards. You may play a Vial now.

"Why don't we have more of this?" (Qty: 3)
One-Shot

Put 1 token on up to 2 vial cards.

"Where did I put this?" (Qty: 4)
One-Shot

Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal a Vial. Put it into play. Discard the other revealed cards.

"Who wants some of this?" (Qty: 2)
One-Shot

This turn, you may use as many powers as you have Vial cards in play. You may not use non-Vial powers.
__________________


Now for some critique and suggestions.

Starting from the top:

Vials look fine for now.

Renamed Safe Chemicals to Stabilizing Agent.
Both effects look fine for now.

Sorted Ingredients needs something extra. I have 2 suggestions.

First, take the Limited off of it. This way, you'd have up to 3 chances to get a card you want on top. I'd also have it give you a card draw when it enters play.

Second, add something like: "When a card would cause you to put the top card of your deck under a Vial, you may put the top card of your trash under it instead." This would give you some extra options and control when mixing. ( This is the one I prefer)

Genius at Work is just fine.

Experiment Preparation looks fine for now.

(For the one-shots, I'm assuming you want to keep all their names as quotes, so any name suggestions I make will be following that.)

"When did I mix this?" looks fine for now. Alternate name option: "I don't remember mixing that."

"What is this?" looks great, but I would rename it "Just what I needed!"

"Why don't we have more of this?" looks fine for now. Alternate name
option: "I'm going to need some more of this!"

"Where did I put this?" is extremely weak compared to all other search cards. It could be debated that discarding the other revealed cards could be beneficial to her, but that aside, it think it should either give a card draw (before or after the search) or a card play. I would change the name to "It has to be here somewhere..."

"Who wants some of this?" looks fine.
________

Some quick statistics of her deck:

- She has to have vials to do anything.

- Out of 40 cards, 10 are Vials and 4 search her deck for them. So that's a little more than 1/3 of her deck. Also, 3 cards draw from her deck. For trash recovery, 3 cards hunt her trash for Vials.

- She only has 6 cards plus her base power that let her Mix, and 3 of those spend the vial automatically. This will slow her down until she draws Genius at Work and/or Experimental Preparation. Will require play testing to see if it's problematic. A side issue is that will make it more difficult to create promo versions of her, but not too big pf a deal.
________

I will start working on Mix abilities next. A big thing I see is making sure she has enough options available to keep her deck running smoothly. She may need more card draw, extra card playing ability, or something else. Play testing will tell.



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Jonathan Richardson
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Phantaskippy wrote:
1. Are all the Mix texts going to have 2 sets of text? You have damage and support effects on mix text and on Vial powers, but the cards are almost always put under the vials randomly, so you either will need 2 sets of mix text and different vials activate the different text, or you will have vials that deal damage and heal, to pretty much negate the vials overall effect.


Your talking symbols like in The Naturalist deck. If we can work the text to fit, this would be good.

Phantaskippy wrote:
2. The text is all longer than can fit comfortably on cards. The official decks don't go over ~250 characters+spaces. when you start getting over that amount the text ends up smaller and harder to read and process. You will also have to fit mix effect text in, which will count towards that text or replace the flavor text, which is one of the cool parts of the game. Not that there isn't room for a deck with no flavor text, but it is a trade off.


This is true, text space is probably the biggest issue in making customs. Many an ability or power has had to been changed completely just because...it...wouldn't...fit!
We'll have to see how it goes here.

Phantaskippy wrote:
3. The vials need instructions for what to do when they are destroyed by other forces than their own text, otherwise they will leave cards under them in play.


This shouldn't be too hard to fit if we drop the counters.

Phantaskippy wrote:
1. I would ditch the charges. For the smaller ones you could make them not destroy themselves, and the big ones could activate their text when destroyed, with a power that destroyed the card on the card.

Ex:

There can only be 1 card under this card.
When this card is destroyed, put any card under it into the trash.
Power: Select a hero target, apply the blue mix effect of the card under this card to that target, then you may put that card in the trash.


It would be even less text because you would use a symbol and not the words 'red mix text'. Like so:

Small Sapphire Vial
Equipment, Vial

Power: 1 target regains 1 HP. Apply the (@) Mix effects of all cards under this card.
When this card is destroyed, put all cards under it into your trash.
There can only be 1 card under this card at a time.

You might be able to just say "When this card is destroyed, destroy all cards under it."

Also, having all the vials destroy themselves isn't a problem in itself, as long as her deck can draw and play enough cards to compensate for always needing to play another vial.

Phantaskippy wrote:
As a side note, I would consider giving an option to see what you put under a card or putting more under without seeing what they say.

For example:
Mixology
Power: Put a card from your hand under a Vial card, or put the top 3 cards of your deck under Vial cards without looking at them.

That way you have an option to load up your vials without knowing exactly what they will do when you trigger them.

I don't know if you want that at all. Could be fun.


Could indeed be fun, but I think it'd be better not to go that route myself.

Phantaskippy wrote:
For other vials you could have a vial that destroyed itself, had only 1 card under it but apply that effect to all non-hero or all hero targets, or one that had 2 effects and affected 2 targets, or even 1 that helped a hero target and hurt a villain.


Different Vial variants sounds good. If you do keep the vials standard, I think we can make the mix effects stronger than they'd otherwise be.


(Edit) Question: Do you want the mix effects to be all the same on a single type of card (ex. both Genius at Work cards having the exact same red and blue mix effects on them.) or do you want the effects all scattered randomly amongst her cards like Nightmist's spell symbols? If scattered randomly, we're going to have post up all 40 cards as separate entries because each copy of a card will no longer be identical to the other copies of that card. That means instead of typing up the card and having it say (Qty:2), we'll have to put both copies of the card separate like so:

"Who wants some of this?" (#1)
One-Shot
This turn, you may use as many powers as you have Vial cards in play. You may not use non-Vial powers.
Mix: The target regains 1 HP and is immune to damage until the start of your next turn.

"Who wants some of this?" (#2)
One-Shot
This turn, you may use as many powers as you have Vial cards in play. You may not use non-Vial powers.
Mix: Increase the damage from this power by 4.

I think having the mix effects scattered around will be good, it just means a giant wall of text when posting the deck list.


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Thomas Arnold
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Hi there, and thank you all for the very nice feedback!

I am aware that my rough sketch has some problems, but you provided some pretty nice suggestions. Some first quick answers:

Phantaskippy wrote:
Are all the Mix texts going to have 2 sets of text? You have damage and support effects on mix text and on Vial powers, but the cards are almost always put under the vials randomly, so you either will need 2 sets of mix text and different vials activate the different text, or you will have vials that deal damage and heal, to pretty much negate the vials overall effect.


My initial idea was to have only 1 mix effect on every card. And yes - that could result in some crazy effects, like a potion that deals some damage, but reduces further damage. Or that damages and heals - in this case, you could bump the potion in the direction you want with a proper catalyst. So yes, this was intentional, and maybe leads to some interesting choices. I can destroy the villain ongoing card, but have him heal some HP in the process, or make his damage irreducible...

What do you think? This would definately save some space one the cards, but make the effects very unpredictable.


Phantaskippy wrote:
I would ditch the charges. For the smaller ones you could make them not destroy themselves, and the big ones could activate their text when destroyed, with a power that destroyed the card on the card.


Nice idea, I like it. The smaller ones can be used over and over, and the bigger ones can be used once for great effect. The one-shot that puts additional counters on a vial could be changed to make one vial indestructable for one turn, so you could use a big vial multiple times.

In this case, if there are less "ingredient" cards under the vials, it would be an option to make the mix effects stronger, but ditch the initial effects of the vials.


I know you had much more suggestions and critique, I will go through them when I have more time. Thanks a lot!
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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You could even save more space and maybe make the effects more user-friendly by not using a "put under other cards" mechanic.

Your Mix effects would simply be offset as such, which, like Adept's song cards, means they sit there doing nothing on their own. The Vials would instruct you to use cards of the various colors. That way, you could mix and match effects as you see fit when using the Vial powers. This leads to less random results but you can customize effects when using the Mix texts.

You could also put Mix cards into play without the Vials, which (like an Instrument without a song) doesn't do much immediately but it does help to not waste turns hoping to get a Vial before you can start building up cards-in-play.
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Thomas Arnold
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That is true, and it would be much more user friendly. But I am afraid that it would lead to a gameplay very similar to the Argent Adept, with Songs = Ingredients and Vials = Instruments. This would not be bad if at least the inpredictable and "crazy alchemist" factor would stay strong, but I don't see it with this approach.

Hmm... now that I think of it - another way to prevent the whole "put cards under other cards"-thing could be, that vial cards would stay alone. When you use their power, additional cards (from hand / top of deck) are added temporarily only to apply their mix-effect, and they get discarded immediately afterwards. This way, the whole "make sure they get destroyed properly" problem would be eliminated. New problem: Possibly even more text on the vials to encode this behaviour, and no way to plan some potions beforehand.
 
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Jonathan Richardson
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ThunderFall wrote:
That is true, and it would be much more user friendly. But I am afraid that it would lead to a gameplay very similar to the Argent Adept, with Songs = Ingredients and Vials = Instruments. This would not be bad if at least the inpredictable and "crazy alchemist" factor would stay strong, but I don't see it with this approach.


I agree. My brother already took a brief look at her and made the comment, "Her deck looks kinda like Argent Adept's.". I would really try to keep something similar to what you have.
Quote:

Hmm... now that I think of it - another way to prevent the whole "put cards under other cards"-thing could be, that vial cards would stay alone. When you use their power, additional cards (from hand / top of deck) are added temporarily only to apply their mix-effect, and they get discarded immediately afterwards. This way, the whole "make sure they get destroyed properly" problem would be eliminated. New problem: Possibly even more text on the vials to encode this behavior, and no way to plan some potions beforehand.


It would probably end up around the same text length, but your right, would mess up being able to plan your potions.

I'll try to think of alternatives.
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Thomas Arnold
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I had some more thoughts about the tokens / no tokens discussion. I have no problems with throwing the tokens out the window, but at second thought, I also don't like to have a vial+mix-card that stays in play forever. In this case, these vials would just get too reliable, and with a very strong mix effect, maybe just too good. I am not sure yet...

Thank you Jonathan for your work on converting my stuff into Sentinels-jargon! I'm not good at this, and my english vocabulary is a bit limited on cool terms, so every help for better card names is welcome!

EmperorEternal wrote:
Sorted Ingredients needs something extra. I have 2 suggestions.

First, take the Limited off of it. This way, you'd have up to 3 chances to get a card you want on top. I'd also have it give you a card draw when it enters play.

Second, add something like: "When a card would cause you to put the top card of your deck under a Vial, you may put the top card of your trash under it instead." This would give you some extra options and control when mixing. ( This is the one I prefer)


I agree that this card is a bit weak, but maybe not so weak as it seems on first glance. If you know the top card, you can plan your next potion accordingly. Example: The top card has a damaging mix effect. So I want to play my Ruby potion now, and apply more damaging effect myself, instead of starting to mix a healing potion. Oh, this all only applies only to my initial idea that every card only has 1 mix effect, so crazy / useless combinations are possible. This ongoing card was menat to mitigate this luck a bit.

EmperorEternal wrote:
(For the one-shots, I'm assuming you want to keep all their names as quotes, so any name suggestions I make will be following that.)


I admit that I have not put too much though on the names, as I am not very creative on my vocabulary. My first idea for the one-shots were these quotes, and the following (silly) rule: The five one-shots begin with the five Ws (Where, Who, What, Why, When), and all end with "this". Yes, this rule is arbitrary and silly. No, I have no problem to throw this whole concept away.

EmperorEternal wrote:
"Where did I put this?" is extremely weak compared to all other search cards. It could be debated that discarding the other revealed cards could be beneficial to her, but that aside, it think it should either give a card draw (before or after the search) or a card play. I would change the name to "It has to be here somewhere..."


I think is makes no real difference for this hero if you shuffle the other cards back into the deck or in the trash. For this reason, I went with the easiest way so you don't need to shuffle. But I agree that other search cards tend to be stronger, so maybe an additional card draw would be a good idea.


Thank you very much for your very helpful and detailed feedback!

I think the biggest open questions (before balacing everything) are:

- One mix effect on every card (as I intended) or one good + one bad mix effect? One mix effect would lead to more chaos and useless potions, two mix effects need more space and are more predictable.

- Vials with 1, 2 or 3 tokens or no tokens? Tokens are clunky, but do their job. Without tokens, vials have to differenciate through other parameters.

- Cards under vials or... something else?
 
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ThunderFall wrote:
My initial idea was to have only 1 mix effect on every card. And yes - that could result in some crazy effects, like a potion that deals some damage, but reduces further damage. Or that damages and heals - in this case, you could bump the potion in the direction you want with a proper catalyst. So yes, this was intentional, and maybe leads to some interesting choices. I can destroy the villain ongoing card, but have him heal some HP in the process, or make his damage irreducible...

What do you think? This would definitely save some space one the cards, but make the effects very unpredictable.


If think it would make her deck harder to balance, but I do think it's working on to have only 1 Mix effect on there. Yes, the Catalyst do help, though they won't be strong enough to over come big Mix effects. Might think of making them "When one of your powers would deal damage to a target, that target regains that many HP instead." and vice versa on the other one.

ThunderFall wrote:
Nice idea, I like it. The smaller ones can be used over and over, and the bigger ones can be used once for great effect. The one-shot that puts additional counters on a vial could be changed to make one vial indestructible for one turn, so you could use a big vial multiple times.

In this case, if there are less "ingredient" cards under the vials, it would be an option to make the mix effects stronger, but ditch the initial effects of the vials.

I think this is the way to go. In this case, the vials might look something like this:
__________

Small Vial
Equipment, Vial
Power: Choose 1 target and apply the Mix effects of all cards under this card.
There can only be 1 card under this card at a time.
When this card is destroyed, destroy all cards under it.

Medium Vial
Equipment, Vial
Power: Choose 1 target and apply the Mix effects of all cards under this card. Destroy this card.
There can be up to 2 cards under this card at a time.
When this card is destroyed, destroy all cards under it.

Large Vial
Equipment, Vial
Power: Choose 1 target and apply the Mix effects of all cards under this card. Destroy this card.
There can be up to 3 cards under this card at a time.
When this card is destroyed, destroy all cards under it.
_______

Right now, the Large Vials are straight up stronger than the Medium Vials, but that's not necessarily a problem.
 
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Jonathan Richardson
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My only real issue with the tokens is I think were going to run out of text space before we can get the Mix effect on there. I think I'll throw together a test card.

I totally did not catch the Who, What, When, Where, & Why thing.

I think we should try to keep the cards under the Vials for the present, at least until we get some play testing done.

Yes, the Small Vials could end up with a strong effect, but it can only hold 1. I mainly think that having a consistent power, while not imbalanced, would take too much away from her "continually creating concoctions and throwing them in your face mad scientist" vibe.

(Edit) I just made a test card and the text with the tokens and without the initial 1 Hp or 1 damage doesn't fit. I ran out of room without even getting to the Mix effect.

So I think we should try out the following:

- No tokens.
- All 3 vials destroy themselves when used.
- 1 Mix effect.

Get the cards fixed up this way and then do some play testing. I have a feeling the deck might not have enough cards that allow mixing outside of her power. We'll have to see.


(Edit#2) I am really being crunched for space trying to fit this stuff on cards. Here's what Ive got:



As you can see, there's only room for 1 line of text for the Mix (on the vials anyway). If I tried to put "Increase the next damage dealt by the target by 2." it would be too long. shake

Only the One-Shots and maybe the Ongoings will have room for another line of text. Frustrating.
 
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Thomas Arnold
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Thanks for your ideas and the text attempts. I see that the cards get really cramped. If all else fails, we could try another kind of card layout - like the title cards of the newest expansion. I could not find an image here at BGG - basically they have no quotation bubble at the bottom, and a seperate bottom section for the title effect. I thought of this layout for the mix effects, actually. Although, I would miss the quotations...
 
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Jonathan Richardson
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You know, we could make it where the Mixes under a vial are destroyed, but the vial stays in play.
Like this:



Oh, and here's a version with a symbol for Mix.



 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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You could already save one line of text by eliminating the "destroy cards under this one when this leaves play" line; that is already a standard rule and not printed on every card that holds cards under it. You really only see it on cards that are placed next to other cards.
 
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Jonathan Richardson
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I looked around in the official rules clarifications and I finally found the precedent your talking about. I was looking for a general rule, but I found it under the Savage Manna section, and it does indeed say the cards under it go to the trash if it leaves play. That's useful to know, I won't have to try to fit that text on any custom cards in the future. Thanks Dennison.

I've updated my above post's images.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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It looks much better with the larger font. Also, if "under this card" were shortened to "under this," that line wouldn't bleed onto the next, allowing one more line of text to fit.
 
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