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Subject: Shogun or ... Shogun ? rss

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Sascha Hoppe
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Hi,

I had the chance to play Shogun at Essen having it explained to me. I really liked the game flow and how easy you could get into the rules and start playing despite the depth it provides.

Yesterday I read the rules for the old MB Classic from the Gamemaster Series "Shogun". Having read that I realized that there are a lot of similarities concerning the game systems.

1. You are secretly "betting" on different things you want to do in the upcoming round (e.g. building, placing armies, attacking etc.)
1b. You are also bidding on the starting order of players.
2. The fights are fought with your armies that you have to position in a strategic way on the map.
3. Winners of fights are determined via dice.

I think Shogun's dice tower is very similar to throwing dice.
There are some differences though.
-First the things you do in a turn a always done in a fixed sequence, where in Queen's Shogun the sequence is random.
-The armies you have, have different abilities making them stronger/weaker fighters, armies in Queen's shogun are all the same.
-You have tactical advantages from fortresses and so on having Ronins joining the fight when attacking, fortresses in Queen's shogun are only relevant for winning conditions, otherwise they add nothing to the province they are in.
-The victory condition is to have a fixed amount of provinces under your control, where Queen's Shogun has more additional things to look for
- There is player elimination, not in Dirk Henn' Shogun
- Of course there is the Ninja!

So all these things came to my mind which made me think if I should get a used Shogun from the Gamemaster Series rather than buying the new Shogun, because it seems like there is more going on in this game. I really like, that fortresses add something to your fighting power and I can imagine that the games feel quite the same.

Maybe someone who played Wallenstein AND Shogun(MB) can say something about his/her experience with these two games and if I'm right that they are similar or if there is something that I miss, that makes Shogun(Queen) the better game.

Thanks
 
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Andrew Prizzi
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I have not played the "new" shogun or Wallenstein, but when forced to pick my #1 favorite game- I have to say Shogun/Samurai Swords aka "old" shogun. It has everything going for it that you mentioned and so much more. It is the pinnacle of "box of toys, multiplayer wargames". If you and your friends enjoy Axis and Allies, any of the Risk versions, or simply multiplayer conflict games in general, I can't reccomend any game higher than MB's Shogun.
 
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I don't see any similiarites between these two shoguns any other than both being wargames and that they are settled in japan.

In Shogun (Queen) you have to plot your complete turn with ten actions beforehand, so it comes mostly down to anticipate the moves of your opponents. Attacks are always risky due to the dicetower. Perhaps your oppenent has only a few troops in the province you try to attack but he can very well have huge amounts in the dice tower.
Then you have to feed your provinces and you always have to have an eye on possible uprisings, all that is lacking in Shogun (MB).

Shogun (Queen) is more abstract and plays more like an euro with unlikely player elimination. Shogun (MB) is all about player elimination and you have several troops to choose from. Nice plastic bits.

Both are good games. But Shogun (MB) has player elimination and this is not very good these days for a game that can last several hours. I recall a recent game (well a year or so ago, for Shogun (MB) this is recent), where a player got eliminated 4h before the game ended. This was his fryday night recreation. After an hour in the game he had to drive home. Not easy to get players for this.

In Shogun (Queen) the theme is not that important, i can think of dozens of possible themes for these game mechanics. No wonder it was published beforehand with a Thirty-Years-War theme. Shogun (MB) is all about theme and atmosphere.

Still i would recommend Shogun (Queen) over Shogun (MB). But that just my opinion.



 
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Andrew Prizzi
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While player elimination is certainly possible and very likely in MB's Shogun, normally the game is over pretty shortly after the first player is eliminated. When a player is eliminated, the player who eliminated him is able to occupy all of the vanquished player's territories if he has the forces needed and wants to. Whatever he doesn't claim the other players still in the game can. Because the victory conditions of the game only require a player to control a certain amount of the board (not total domination like risk or others of the genre), the first player to eliminate someone is frequently able to win the game on the spot.

That being said, it certainly is possible to have someone eliminated and the game continue for some time. I'd suggest this person gets to do something else, instead of driving home.

Another cool feature of the MB shogun that I don't think was mentioned in the original post- your generals actually gain experience and improve their performance during the game.

The "new" shogun does look like a neat game, and if given the chance I'd gladly play it, but I don't see adding it to my collection when I already have what I feel is the definitive wargame on feudal japan. I don't have any games on the 30 years war though, so maybe someday I'll pick up Wallenstein.
 
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Noel
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Samurai Swords is one of my favorite games, I've been playing it since it was first released as Shogun. I have two copies, one still in shrink for when my other copy finally gets worn to uselessness. Wallenstein is a great game that we've had a lot of fun with and I'm certainly going to (eventually) get my hands on a copy of Queen's Shogun, but since Wallenstein is on my list of games to trade off and Samurai Swords is not, you can see where my opinion lays.
 
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Richard Would
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Well as someone who cannot stand Shogun (partly due to it's similarities with Risk) I am really hopeful that the new Shogun is a vast improvement.

However I was always in a minority of 1 for not liking the game. If you like Risk yes it's good.
 
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Greg Low
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rwould wrote:
If you like Risk yes it's good.


To each their own, but I hate Risk, and find Shogun to be quite fun. I don't believe that the Risk-Gamemaster correlation is as high as you suggest.

The simultaneous secret allocation of resources is a great game mechanic. The comparision between the two games of the same name started quite awhile ago: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/110931.

I don't find player elimination to be a big concern. If you don't have a shot at winning, is there some consolation in fruitlessly moving pieces around?

-Greg
 
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Martin R. Krause
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Samurai Swords is really different game. QGs Shogun is about developing the country, you get VPs for building things, war is just a way to recive this goal. While Samurai Swords is a classic conquer and crush the enemy game.

You will notice the difference, when you have played QGs Shogun more often.
 
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Philip Thomas
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I haven't played Wallenstein Shogun. As for Samurai Swords Shogun I think it is a great game, even though I don't like Risk: crucially the combat system for Samurai Swords is much superior to that for Risk.
 
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Sascha Hoppe
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Chiuso wrote:

In Shogun (Queen) you have to plot your complete turn with ten actions beforehand, so it comes mostly down to anticipate the moves of your opponents.

As I read it, you have to do that secretly beforehand also in MB's Shogun. You have to sacrifice your Koku for certain tasks and it depends on the plans of your opponents if you can fulfill them.
Chiuso wrote:

Shogun (Queen) is more abstract and plays more like an euro with unlikely player elimination. Shogun (MB) is all about player elimination and you have several troops to choose from. Nice plastic bits.

Being left with 3 little provinces with 4 armies in them and no chance to win would be some kind of indirect elimination.
Chiuso wrote:

In Shogun (Queen) the theme is not that important, i can think of dozens of possible themes for these game mechanics. No wonder it was published beforehand with a Thirty-Years-War theme. Shogun (MB) is all about theme and atmosphere.


I thought the theme worked quite well, although the fighting didn't play such a great role.

I still see many similarities with these two games, even if Shogun(MB) seems to focus a lot more on the fighting aspect. Somehow Wallenstein is vastly more respected on the geek. Maybe the system is richer, despite the missing details to create atmosphere.




 
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Mark Crocker
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Not knowing who your gaming pals are, I can only speculate. But if your companions are anything like mine, then Queen's "Shogun" is much more likely to hit the table more often, making it a better value overall. I know absolutely nothing about the MB "Shogun", but Wallenstein has remained one of my 3 favorite games, since I've owned it. It's continuous high ranking here is no illusion.
 
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Henk Rolleman
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I have played both games. Shogun of MB many times. The last time I played one games in 13 hours with 5 persons! Two players where eliminated and finaly we stopped the game. 13 hours of concentration and adrenaline was exhausting. It's a beautiful wargames with a lot of interaction, but with a lot of playtime. Shogun of Queen games is a "very light" wargame. You play two years, with total 8 rounds. So you can only attack max. 12 counties during the games if you use all opportunities of attacking. So you play max. 3 hours and than the games is ended. Also collecting food, building fords, monuments and theatres is from a high important for the victory points. So I choose for Shogun of Queen games, cause i has a much shorter games play, it's a very light waregames so you got more women on the table. You can play in one evening. Shogun of MB is for me a fantastic wargames with everything in it and a lot's of adrenaline. But the playtime is much to long.
 
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Andrew Prizzi
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If the new shogun gets women onto your gaming table, I'm not sure how any game can compete with that.
 
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Mark Crocker
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Excellent point, prizziap. Gals are much more likely to play the new one.
 
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David Tolin
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prizziap wrote:
If the new shogun gets women onto your gaming table, I'm not sure how any game can compete with that.


Women on the gaming table? That's pretty kinky. surprise
 
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Kris J
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I've played both as well. These two games, though they share the same name and theme, are pretty incomperable. One cannot stand in the place of the other. One is an epic campaign of battles, the other is succinct and whirlwindy.

While the commonalities you found in both games were very observant and interesting, your post is like saying that both cats and dogs have three-letter names, whiskers, and tails, so they must be so alike that you can only have one, and which one? While they do have commonalities, they have a different feel, different requirements, and different sorts of people like both.

Mao!

Rompcat
 
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Henk Rolleman
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DavidT wrote:
prizziap wrote:
If the new shogun gets women onto your gaming table, I'm not sure how any game can compete with that.


Women on the gaming table? That's pretty kinky. surprise


Well I meaned at the table but on the table isn't bad either laugh
I'm Dutch and my English cry
 
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