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Three Days of Gettysburg (third edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Artillery damage question rss

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Logan Lechner
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So I just picked up this game a few days ago on eBay and upon looking over the fire combat results table have had a question come up that I couldn't decide the answer to myself. Is it really true that artillery can't do damage in this game? Because according to my chart, even 18+ SPs of artillery with a modified dice roll of 12 can still only disorder a unit. Is this a misprint or am I missing something?
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William Byrne
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Try "Rapid Fire" from a battery of Napoleons from a hex one level higher than an adjacent enemy unit, and watch the fur fly.

Shot & shell (range = 4 hexes or more) just wasn't that effective.
 
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thomas fernbacker
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Yes, arty lost its punch in the later versions.
Even if your up close and personal, nobody dies.
 
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William Byrne
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thomas7163 wrote:
Yes, arty lost its punch in the later versions.
Even if your up close and personal, nobody dies.


Well, now, that just isn't true, even if you aren't up close & personal. Let's take the example of an artillery battalion, of which there are plenty in 3DoG. Maybe it consists of four batteries. When it comes time for them to activate, which they can do as a brigade, each of them fires in turn. If they score a Disorder result, and then score another on the same target, that target unit is down 1 SP and must retreat if Infantry or Cavalry.

If the artillery is up close & personal, things can get lethal fast.

How much more lethal do you think they should be? After all, Gettysburg witnessed one of the ACW's largest long-range bombardments, and the casualties it inflicted did not materially affect the outcome.

I would say that GBACW's occasional disorder results for Shot & Shell are just about right. As RHB says in one of his Play Notes, we're talking about ACW artillery, not tanks.
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thomas fernbacker
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It's taking (2)two shots of Canister(1 to 3hexes) before there's a possible step loss.
Thats four or six guns depending on who's firing, firing twice.
So thats eight or twelve guns.

Thats not right.

I know their not tanks but artillery had come a long way since Napoleon manned a gun.
 
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Logan Lechner
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thomas7163 wrote:
It's taking (2)two shots of Canister(1 to 3hexes) before there's a possible step loss.
Thats four or six guns depending on who's firing, firing twice.
So thats eight or twelve guns.

Thats not right.

I know their not tanks but artillery had come a long way since Napoleon manned a gun.


I'm with you on this. I'm not saying it should do anything more than one SP at any given time past 3 hexes seeing as 1 SP is 50 men. But still, if an entire battery of four guns, not even the 18 max on the chart, hits its target, it's gonna do more than just make the bad guys a little scared, it's going to kill at least a few people.

But my personal opinions aside, thank you everyone for clarifying the mechanic for me. I still love the game, even if the artillery is underpowered.
 
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William Byrne
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thomas7163 wrote:
It's taking (2)two shots of Canister(1 to 3hexes) before there's a possible step loss.
Thats four or six guns depending on who's firing, firing twice.
So thats eight or twelve guns.

Thats not right.

I know their not tanks but artillery had come a long way since Napoleon manned a gun.


Which chart are you looking at, Thomas? At range 1-3 artillery fires on the Small-Arms Fire Table. A battery of 6 guns has a 20% chance of inflicting a loss even if the DRM is 0; a four-gun battery as a 10% chance. Apply the various DRMs for short range fire, and the chance of inflicting a loss rises to 50-60%. If the artillery is firing at a lower-level target, that's another +1. In some of the games Napoleons get a +4 DRM firing at an adjacent target. I'm not even adding in the extra chances of Disordering the target.

Artillery may be vulnerable in GBACW, but I fail to see that it's underpowered.
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thomas fernbacker
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I consider myself a fair person whether right or wrong.
When I'm wrong I am not too proud to say I apologize.
I've been taught and/or have been understanding this rule wrong, 10.67.
Through all of my plays of RoD, RBoC, 3DoG & DoW, I find it hard to except this has not been an issue.

We've never had casualties at canister range.

I'm playing the full battle DoW game this spring/summer and I'm really going to watch each fire fight.

Thanks for your help
 
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William Byrne
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No apologies necessary. We GBACW'ers need to stick together.

Currently playin' the 2nd Bull Run Full Battle game against a veteran. He has the Rebs; we're just finishing the 1000 turn of August 29th. Jackson's corps has batteries everywhere I look. I've been so scared of closing with him that, when I saw this thread, I had to respond.
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Lee Trowbridge
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Interesting subject to me, as I'm about to set up one of the later generation GBACW games (GMT's Red Badge of Courage), having until now only played earlier generation versions of the system.

I sense from the discussion so far that there still is a basic difference in interpretation that leads to the disparate conclusions.

Would one of you be willing to illustrate an artillery fire combat resolution in detail? Then the other comment on whether you are using the mechanics identically?
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William Byrne
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E_T_Lee wrote:
Interesting subject to me, as I'm about to set up one of the later generation GBACW games (GMT's Red Badge of Courage), having until now only played earlier generation versions of the system.

I sense from the discussion so far that there still is a basic difference in interpretation that leads to the disparate conclusions.

Would one of you be willing to illustrate an artillery fire combat resolution in detail? Then the other comment on whether you are using the mechanics identically?


That's somewhat of a tall order, Lee, as we're dealing with a number of variables:
-- Gun type
-- Range
-- Elevation
-- Phasing versus non-Phasing Fire
-- Rapid Fire
-- Artillery and Shock
-- Ammo depletion
-- Fire after movement or Reaction Facing Change

...along with a couple issues not clearly laid out in the rules, and which players probably do resolve in different ways. So far, however, this thread has not encountered one of those rules issues.

What if you were to pose a situation instead? Then guys could respond to your questions/issues.
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Lee Trowbridge
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Simple(?) Example.

3rd Maine/b (foolishly?) manages to move to the indicated spot, 2 hexes from Walker/a's Artillery section. What happens next? - what are the shifts, the range of results, etc. (assuming no other unit fires on 3rd Me/b i this activation).

Then, assume whatever unit Walker/a is associated with gets the next activation and fires again. What happens?

What I'm wondering about is whether the two early posters (Logan Lechner and William Byrne) actually resolve the combat differently or that they resolve it the same way but simply differ in what they subjectively view as suffering insignificant damage versus getting 'hosed'.

 
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William Byrne
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-- Walker-a would have had the option of using Approach Fire against 3rd ME-b when the latter came within 3 hexes (LOS & facing permitting).

-- Given that Walker-a is alone in the hex, it would have been advisable for it to use that Approach Fire opportunity, as 3rd ME-b, if under Attack Orders, could have fired at it from 3-hex range with a 60% chance of disordering the battery. (If 3rd ME-b was under Advance Orders and started 3 hexes away, it could have done the same thing, but then it couldn't have moved).

-- We're also assuming that Walker-b is wiped out, because the different sections of batteries are supposed to stay stacked

-- But let's return to the situation as depicted, and say that Walker-a Approach Fires with 2 SP. Range = 2 hexes, which, according to the Range Effects Chart for 3DoG, gives Walker a +2 DRM. Chances of inflicting a loss are 20%. Chances of inflicting a sure Disorder are also 20%. Chances of forcing 3rd ME to UDD for disorder with DRMs from -2 to +2 are 70%. As 3rd ME is a fairly low-cohesion unit, Disorder from a failed UDD is more likely than not, but not by much.

In this situation I would opt to use Approach Fire. The alternative, if 3rd ME is under Attack orders, is an 80% chance that it will disrupt the artillery if/when it fires. 3rd ME will be able to get a shot off in any case, but disordering it, costing it an SP, or both will increase Walker's chances of surviving the small-arms fire unscathed. If he does survive in good order after being fired upon, he can Return Fire (which for artillery is not simultaneous with Phasing Fire), with the same +2 DRM.

And if Walker activates next, he can fire again on 3rd ME (or some other unit). If he disordered due to 3rd ME's fire, he can move or attempt to rally.

Lastly, Walker cannot use Rapid Fire, as his guns are rifled.
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Lee Trowbridge
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Thanks --- that seems consistent with the charts and rules (such as I've skimmed) for Red Badge of Courage. It's the multiple fires and multiple disruptions with associated strength point losses that adds up pretty quickly - not to mention other units that might be firing (left out in this deliberately simple example). That all seems about the right degree of lethality to me.

Does anyone else reading this see the combat resolution being done differently?
 
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