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Subject: [DROPPED] WIP Kendo Shōbu - 4 cards, 2 players, no table rss

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David Gregg
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I'm dropping this design after finding Dragon Punch (currently on Kickstarter) which accomplishes all of my design goals and has better supporting mechanics. I'm backing that one and recommend those following this do so as well.

meeple

-----------

This kinda hit me a couple months back and I've been puzzling over it since. Basic premise:

- Each player has 2 square cards with a unique icon on each corner
- Each card represents a basic stat such as health / mana
- Cards are placed between fingers to track how much of stat you have
- Players simultaneously rotate both cards so desired icon is on top and then reveal and resolve
- Some combo system where one card boosts another
- Play until one player runs out of health

I've decided to move away from my usual fantasy theme and am currently thinking this would make a cute pillow fight themed game as you're kinda swinging your arm when you reveal due to how you hold the cards, so it just sorta fits. Could also make for a good sword fight theme like kendo. Here's the actual game play rules I have so far:

- One card is your offense, other is your defense
- Offense represents how you're swinging your pillow and also tracks your "grip" (hp)
- Defense represents your stance and tracks your stamina (mp)
- Each stance can dodge a single swing, negating an opponent's attack
- Each swing can be parried by 2 other swings, allowing the opponent to land a hit
- Each swing has a cost of 1 stamina unless paired with a specific stance
- Once you land a strike, your very next turn can be a super hit by using same exact strike (dangerous due to parry) and cannot be dodged
- One strike is "guard" (or block) which if it hits recover's the player's stamina to full (super = recover 1 grip instead)
- One strike reduces the opponent's grip by 1 (super reduces by 2 grip)
- One strike reduces the opponent's stamina by 1 (super reduces by 2 stamina)
- One strike reduces the opponent's power (super reduces both grip and stamina by 1)
- Cards are normally held in right hand which is full power and follows rules from above
- If your power is reduced, you must switch your cards to your left hand
- While power is reduced, you or your opponent may opt to negate the penalty of one of your hits to return you to full power (you must state whether you're opting before opponent does)
- A negated hit does not count toward allowing a super hit on the next turn

And... that's the game. I plan on having a prototype up very soon, ideally in time to take with me to MACE West and demo a bit there.

Edit: Updated title to Kendo Shōbu
Edit: For my own notes - PnP Contest - Thread Comment / Geeklist Entry
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David Gregg
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Re: WIP Pillow Fight - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
Working on charting how the stances / strikes counter each other and came up with one change and one clarification:

- Each strike will land a hit against 2 other strikes, however only 1 of those will be a parry and enable the super hit on the next turn. The other hit is a case where the 2 players would hit each other simultaneously.

- The stance needed to remove the stamina cost of a strike is also one of the stances that does not dodge either of the strikes that could hit you. This essentially makes defense what costs stamina to use.

Working on a prototype now.

Quick chart of stances / strikes:

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John A. White
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Re: WIP Pillow Fight - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
How about a girl version?
Make the animals cute.

Panda
Turtle
Penguin
Kitten

Hurdle: Resulting 4 types... come from memory. Not a combo of 2 thematic Stance/Swing to result in type against reading 2 others Swing/Stance.

Serious AP in regard to figuring out YOUR result, let alone left and right guys results.

"1,2,3, Show.... um..... ok I got a bear thing and a pillow chop i think... that results in Perry. Ok what did you get?"
"um"

Mechanics are great. How can you make the results Instant... even with Rock Paper Scissors you get a full second of AP.

IOS app would be a home run... Super home run if it was Multi player. Because you're doing the fun part of Filtered RoShamBo and the app does the results you have AP on.
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David Gregg
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Re: WIP Pillow Fight - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
I plan on using plenty of iconography on the 4 corners of the cards to speed things up as much as possible. Resolution is 3 steps:

- Check stance first: if opponent used your countering stance, you're done for the turn

- Check strike: If you or opponent hit each other, reduce stats

- Check for parry: If your hit also parried, you can super next turn

I'm going through a bunch of icons I have saved now to try to make things as clear as possible.

Edit: As for theme, sure, could go girly with this one. I'm more of a mechanics person, so will solidify that first and then finalize the theme later.
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David Gregg
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Re: WIP Pillow Fight - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
These are the icons I plan on using with the prototype:

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Jeremy Peet
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Re: WIP Pillow Fight - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
Have you considered entering this design into the 2 PLayer PnP Design Contest, might be a good fit.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1311550/2015-two-player-pnp...
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David Gregg
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Re: WIP Pillow Fight - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
Thanks, may very well submit there meeple
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Re: WIP Pillow Fight - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
First draft of the stance card!



Basically each stance has one strike that does not cost energy and one enemy strike that it dodges. To note: each strike will be weak against 2 other strikes and if you opt to conserve energy you will not be able to dodge either of those 2 strikes.
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Gregg Jewell
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Re: WIP Pillow Fight - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
s3rvant wrote:
First draft of the stance card!



Basically each stance has one strike that does not cost energy and one enemy strike that it dodges. To note: each strike will be weak against 2 other strikes and if you opt to conserve energy you will not be able to dodge either of those 2 strikes.

Can you explain the card and its symbols a little more? I guess I am missing what exactly the symbols mean per each animal.
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Re: WIP Pillow Fight - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
JewellGames wrote:
Can you explain the card and its symbols a little more? I guess I am missing what exactly the symbols mean per each animal.
Sure! The large corner icons are the 4 stances in the game. The first icon on the top row next to each stance are the 4 strikes (axe/chop, slash, drill/thrust and shield). Note that the upper row uses the strike icons with a white background while the lower row has them with a black background.

white background = your icons
black background = opponent's icons

The top row is saying that if you also played the indicated strike, your stamina remains the same (normally you spend 1 stamina each turn).

The running dude is the symbol I'm using for "dodge". So, the bottom row is saying that if your opponent also played the indicated strike then you dodge it.

Example: If I play the monkey stance I can opt to also play the slash strike to avoid spending any stamina this turn and if my opponent plays the axe strike I'll dodge it.

Edit: Each player has this card as well as a strike card, so you get to play 1 stance icon and 1 strike icon per turn.
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Gregg Jewell
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Re: WIP Pillow Fight - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
Maybe that is where I was confused, that the stances have strikes on them too. Thanks.
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Re: WIP Pillow Fight - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
Just dawned on me that I don't like having each strike penalize 2 other strikes, so I'm changing the parry/hit system to parry/clash where parry causes a hit and clash causes no damage however BOTH players are then able to use the super hit which should play out as an interesting decision between the 2 players as to who will attempt to use the super vs parry the other player's super etc.
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Re: WIP Pillow Fight - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
First draft of the strike card!



This one's busier than I'd like simply because I'm using a 3rd row of icons to symbolize what benefit you get from using a super hit.

Example using chop (axe top left):
1. If opponent plays thrust (drill) then your next attack is a super
2. If opponent plays guard (shield) then they lose 1 grip (hp)
3. If #2 while super, they also lose 1 energy

Note that to use a super hit you must use the example same strike again, else it's just a regular hit. This also means that whenever the 2 players clash with opposite strikes, they're both able to use super on the next round, increasing the tension for that round a great deal.

The slash strike (top right) gives you an automatic dodge on the next turn if your opponent plays chop. Landing the super hit weakens your opponent, meaning they move their cards to their non-dominate hand and must play there until they recover. To recover they must land a hit, which will recover them instead of resolving normally.
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Re: WIP Pillow Fight - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
Think it's going to be necessary to make super strikes undodgeable.

PnP file time! Download PDF [476 KB] (see latest version)

Bonus pic of my prototype print out meeple

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David Gregg
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Re: WIP Pillow Fight - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
I've added this thread to the 2015 Two-Player PnP Game Design Contest

Thread comment - https://boardgamegeek.com/article/18524550#18524550
Geeklist entry - https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/186544/item/3772400#item3...

Now to get the rules written wow
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David Gregg
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Re: WIP Pillow Fight - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
And... here's first draft of the rules! Download PDF [661 KB] (see latest version)
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John Breckenridge
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Re: WIP Pillow Fight - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
Your images and descriptions for all the actions don't really feel like a pillow fight. Why not call the game a simulated martial arts sparring match?
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Re: WIP Pillow Fight - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
jbrecken wrote:
Your images and descriptions for all the actions don't really feel like a pillow fight. Why not call the game a simulated martial arts sparring match?
I'm using icons from game-icons.net while prototyping, but thought a light game such as this would do well with a cuter theme. Of course it can be themed to many different 1v1 sparring type matches.
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Re: WIP Pillow Fight - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
Hmm... I'm thinking that as expensive as dodging is it should have more "oomf"; perhaps successfully dodging makes your attack automatically hit as if the opponent had played the strike that your strike parries? Would be especially critical during super strikes and would also make the thrust (drill) much more interesting as an attack choice.
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Re: WIP Kendo Shōbu - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
Kendo Shōbu!

Swapping out the theme for the time being to make playtesting feedback a bit more tolerable

Updated mini rulebook: Download [PDF 134KB] (see latest version)

PocketMod version: Download [PDF 1.02MB] (see latest version) - Instructions



There's now a Google form for recording feedback: http://bit.ly/KendoShobu

I plan on printing some copies of the game and rules to hand out at MACE West next weekend if any of you happen to be in the area cool

Also, something's wrong with the above. 10GG to the one that finds it first
 
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Re: WIP Kendo Shōbu - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
Got in my first playtest tonight and encountered some things I wasn't happy with:
- When holding the cards as pictures, the icons are overlapped, e.g., the icons next to the wolf's head, so you can't see what you're supposed to resolve very easily
- It is much harder to recover energy than expected and only happened once my entire game
- Nothing happens when both players use the same attack
- Landing a thrust hit (they lose energy) has no effect if they're already at zero energy

Fortunately these are all pretty easy to fix:
- I'm going to add that whenever players use the same attack, both players gain 1 energy, which solves #2 and #3 above
- I'll shift the icons to being below the main icon instead of beside
- For the time being I'll leave the last point unresolve to see if the extra energy generation helps prevent that situation from occurring as much

I'd like to add another row of icons to notate the energy gain, but not sure it'll fit. I'll upload a updated PnP files asap.
 
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Chad Russell
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Re: WIP Kendo Shōbu - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
The game seems to be coming along quite well, been checking the progress for some time. I love that it is very portable yet has so much in just the four cards.
I think the health tracking between the fingers is a unique machanic and works for this game. As soon as i free up space in my drop box i will print the most recent files for sure
I did notice in the micro rules it is mentioned that 0 health is between the ring and middle finger but the previous rules had it between ring and pinky. Is this a rules change of two health instead of three?
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Re: WIP Kendo Shōbu - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
Thanks Chad! That ring/middle bit on page 5 is indeed an error. That'll be fixed on next rulebook update. Thanks for pointing it out thumbsup
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Re: WIP Kendo Shōbu - 4 card micro game for 2 players (no table needed)
File update complete!
- Moved icons to being below their primary icon
- Added 4th row of icons on strike card to show that matching hits grant energy
- Shrunk icons a tiny bit (5%) to fit better
- Added glance to rulebook to explain the energy gain from same strikes
- Reworded a few other bits to improve clarity



Downloads:
- Rulebook (Standard) [PDF 134KB]
- Rulebook (PocketMod) [PDF 1.37MB]
- PnP Printouts [PDF 420KB]
 
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Gregg Jewell
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Re: WIP Kendo Shōbu - 4 cards, 2 players, no table
I have been following this game and like the concept and mechanics but I feel like there is a lot going on and something just isn't clicking for me. I don't know whether its the icons themselves or the associations that are "off" to me.


Ok, so the stance cards determine whether you dodge your opponents strike or empower your own strike. It says that if were not dodged by the opponent's stance card, that your strike automatically succeeds.

What does this mean? A hit or now it can be compared in the next Strike phase?

So now my strikes can hit or miss based on what your opponent's strike is?

Miss
If your opponent’s strike does
not match either of the dark
icons next to your strike icon,
the strike misses and your turn
ends.

Is that my strike or theirs? I assume, mine.

Hit
If your opponent’s strike
matches the 2nd dark icon next
to your strike, they’re hit and
you gain your strike’s effect:

So my strike succeeded by not being dodged by their stance but only hits is my opponent's strike matches the 2nd dark icon shown under my strike icon?

Why tie the hit/miss to what their strike is but dodge to the stance? I think that is where the disconnect is for me.

I get why you are doing it since it is kind of two RPS systems going on but it just isn't clicking with me, sorry.
 
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