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Leonardo da Vinci» Forums » Rules

Subject: A few Rules Questions rss

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John Weber
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Just received my copy of US edition (thanks to Fairplay in the Midwest). Played a few games over the past week and, not surprisingly, a few rules questions came up. One I think is answered under the FAQ, one involves the Marketplace expansion, so I will post it there.

1. First player (who holds Leonardo) completes work on two requested inventions, call them A and B, on the same turn. Second player completes work on invention A and third player completes work on invention B. The question arises on the order of bidding for the two contested patents for inventions A and B. We gave everyone their income and -- not seeing anything in the rules -- decided that the bidding for patents would commence with the bids for invention A, since that was the first conflict to arise. Upon checking with the FAQ (question 14), it seems that the first player gets to choose which patent is bid on first, after (I assume) everyone receives florins for their completed inventions. Is this correct? Would the situation be different had the first player done on one invention, then the second or third player done both with caused the multiple conflicts -- i.e., do you reward someone for being the first player or reward them from doing multiple inventions by giving them the benefit of choosing the order of bidding?

2. Second question involves bluffing. Is it legal to put a card under a laboratory just to fake the other players out when you have no intention of doing research (i.e. could it even be a money card which I note has the same color backs as the component cards?) ? Didn't see anything in the rules or FAQ that addresses this, only the point about someone who mistakenly put the wrong card(s) there, which is something I have done more than once.

3. Finally, one thing came up in on the first turn of a 3-player game: No one put anything in the Council. In the absence of anything specific in the rules, we said first player did not change for the next turn. Is this correct?
 
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Jeff Hinrickson
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John Weber wrote:
Just received my copy of US edition (thanks to Fairplay in the Midwest). Played a few games over the past week and, not surprisingly, a few rules questions came up. One I think is answered under the FAQ, one involves the Marketplace expansion, so I will post it there.

1. First player (who holds Leonardo) completes work on two requested inventions, call them A and B, on the same turn. Second player completes work on invention A and third player completes work on invention B. The question arises on the order of bidding for the two contested patents for inventions A and B. We gave everyone their income and -- not seeing anything in the rules -- decided that the bidding for patents would commence with the bids for invention A, since that was the first conflict to arise. Upon checking with the FAQ (question 14), it seems that the first player gets to choose which patent is bid on first, after (I assume) everyone receives florins for their completed inventions. Is this correct? Would the situation be different had the first player done on one invention, then the second or third player done both with caused the multiple conflicts -- i.e., do you reward someone for being the first player or reward them from doing multiple inventions by giving them the benefit of choosing the order of bidding?


Yes everyone receives florins equaling the number in bold black lettering for completing the invention while it was still on the board. Then all of those players bid on who takes it. The other players, who didn't initially complete this invention, still can complete this invention even though it is removed from the board but they only get the number of florins in grey lettering.

John Weber wrote:
2. Second question involves bluffing. Is it legal to put a card under a laboratory just to fake the other players out when you have no intention of doing research (i.e. could it even be a money card which I note has the same color backs as the component cards?) ? Didn't see anything in the rules or FAQ that addresses this, only the point about someone who mistakenly put the wrong card(s) there, which is something I have done more than once.


It states in the rules that you may stop building if you realize you have put the wrong cards under your lab or if you change your mind and want to build something else, I would guess you could use this as a bluff tactic. This would, by the way, be using up you lab for a bluff because you can only make one invention per lab so you could cause yourself to be behind in the building of inventions if you do this.

John Weber wrote:
3. Finally, one thing came up in on the first turn of a 3-player game: No one put anything in the Council. In the absence of anything specific in the rules, we said first player did not change for the next turn. Is this correct?


Yes you are correct, first player would only change if you go to the council.
 
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John Weber
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Jeff, thanks for the reply. I think you may have missed the thrust of my question #1, which is what is the order on which the bidding occurs for multiple contested patents in the same turn, particularly when a single player is involved in both bidding wars.

On Item 2, I think the reason for doing the bluff move is when you don't want the other players to think you lack the component cards for any of the requested inventions. Of course, if you still needed to go to the Workshop to take a mechancial man or a lab upgrade, you couldn't do this for that particular lab since it would be seen as "working" on an invention.

Any other thoughts from any of the Italian guys out there who have played the game alot?
 
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Scott Nelson
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my 2cents:

We played the bids in order on the board, from closest to the deck of invention cards, just to make it easy. I suppose you could take into account who has Leonardo and if they are involved in a tie, to do that one first. If they are involved in both ties, go to the next player, and how close they are to the Leonardo player. There are a few ways to do this, but what I found out was the main thing, is that you do each of the payouts separately. Pay each in one tie, bid, pay each other on next tie, bid.
 
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Alexander B.
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I don't feel that bluffing is legal. The intent is clearly that while I can change my mind, it doesn't say that I can intentionally put the wrong cards in for construction.

The first question could be resloved by everyone revealing their bid at once as there is no reason to resolve them in any order.

The final question you interpreted correctly according to my reading of the rules.
 
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Greg Durrett
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John Weber wrote:

2. Second question involves bluffing. Is it legal to put a card under a laboratory just to fake the other players out when you have no intention of doing research (i.e. could it even be a money card which I note has the same color backs as the component cards?) ? Didn't see anything in the rules or FAQ that addresses this, only the point about someone who mistakenly put the wrong card(s) there, which is something I have done more than once.


The rules state:

"If you choose to begin a new invention:

- Put the exact components required for that invention underneath the laboratory card."

Based on this statement in the rules, I think it is clearly not allowed to intentionally place anything other than the component cards required for a particular invention.

Greg
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Daniel Szukalow
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1. I believe (based on the FAQ) that it would work this way. Leonardo player decides to resolve invention B first, so -

Leonardo player gets paid for invention B (black amount)
Other player who completed invention B gets paid (black amount)
These two players bid for control of the invention - its resolved.

Leonardo player now gets paid for invention A (black amount)
Other player who completed invention A gets paid (black amount)
These two players bid for control of the invention - its resolved.

The second part of your question I would work the same way in turn order from the Leonardo player. In other words,

player 2 and player 3 complete 2 of the same inventions then player 2 gets to pick which invention is resolved first.

2. No - this is not legal. The only cards which go under the labs are the exact components required to complete an as of yet uncompleted invention.

Further to your question 2 - putting cards mistakenly under a lab would need to be agreed upon by your gaming friends, at that point, on what to do about it. Quite frankly, if I was in that group I'd say tough cookies you can take your cards back into your hand and start all over.

3. The Leonardo player remains the Leonardo player.


Enjoy!
 
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Jonathan Degann
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Absolutely I agree that you may not put additional components down. But the purpose of this rule is to insure that a player must make a firm commitment. I see nothing to prevent him from putting money cards in to disguise his intentions. The rules do make it clear that a player's laboratory contents are secret.

FWIW, when I played, we agreed to just simply put our components in during the lab phase secretly and simultaneously. I assembled my components under the table, closed them together, and stuck them under my lab. The only clue was how far up the laboratory was riding over the cards.

One of the playtesters noted that you MAY reveal what you are working on to discourage others from working on the same one. At your risk, of course.
 
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John Weber
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Thanks for all the responses, but I am getting conflicting answers on one basic question: before the bidding for the patents starts, is not all the money for all completed inventions handed out first? That's always been my understanding, unless I am missing something.
 
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Chris Boote
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I believe (and we played yesterday) that FIRST all players receive all money for complete inventions
THEN the new Leonardo player (the one currently holding the Leonardo figure) decides the order that conflicts will be resolved
So for your example plus a bit...
A B C are 4-week inventions and all completed this turn
A by p1 and p2
B by p1 and p3
C by p2 and p3

After everyone has received their 8 cash, p1 (the holder of the Leonardo figure) says that the bid for invention C will be first. After seeing who wins, he then decides whether A or B is next, the finally the last one is resolved

 
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John Weber
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Chris, that sounds right. I have a new question though and will put it on a separate thread.
 
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Steve Sisk
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Chrisboote wrote:
After everyone has received their 8 cash, p1 (the holder of the Leonardo figure) says that the bid for invention C will be first. After seeing who wins, he then decides whether A or B is next, the finally the last one is resolved

After double-checking the rules, it appears that you are right. According to the order of play as indicated at the bottom of page 6, each player reveals their completed inventions and gets paid. Then, near the top of page 7, inventions are removed from the board, being auctioned if completed by more than 1 player.

It would seem to be more streamlined for players to resolve AND remove inventions a they go through, but the rules are fairly clear in the order of resolution.
 
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