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"Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice." Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

Therefore Jesus said again, "Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

The Jews who heard these words were again divided. Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?"

But others said, "These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?"

Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon's Colonnade. The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly."

Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

"We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. There he stayed, and many people came to him. They said, "Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true." And in that place many believed in Jesus.
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I think here we really start to get the impression that the timing of Jesus' death is not something that was left up to chance. He tells the Pharisees that he is going to lay his life down for his followers, he says he will lay his life down "of his own accord", and then when his opponents try to kill him at that moment, he makes a skillful defense and escapes, as he has done on previous occasions.

As a sacrifice for the benefit of mankind, his death is inevitable, but that does not mean he and his Father could not have picked the time and place for it to occur. As the account continues, it becomes more clear that events are moving towards Jesus' death occurring at a pretty significant date on the Jewish calendar, the Passover, in a year that will even fulfill a prophecy - Daniel 9:26, "But after the sixty-two sets of seven time periods, the Anointed One will be cut off and have nothing."

As his opponents might now be learning, they are powerless to stop Jesus' activities until that due time arrives.
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I never heard this one. What is this all about. Can you elucidate what these time periods are

Quote:
becomes more clear that events are moving towards Jesus' death occurring at a pretty significant date on the Jewish calendar, the Passover, in a year that will even fulfill a prophecy - Daniel 9:26, "But after the sixty-two sets of seven time periods, the Anointed One will be cut off and have nothing."


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jonb wrote:
I never heard this one. What is this all about. Can you elucidate what these time periods are

Quote:
becomes more clear that events are moving towards Jesus' death occurring at a pretty significant date on the Jewish calendar, the Passover, in a year that will even fulfill a prophecy - Daniel 9:26, "But after the sixty-two sets of seven time periods, the Anointed One will be cut off and have nothing."




Whatever they need to be to circle the square.
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Jesus still skirts the whole divinity thing and clearly refers to the father as not being himself.
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Therefore Jesus said again, "Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.


As a non-believer, this rings out as something that a million cult leaders have proclaimed - everyone else is a fraud, only though me will the truth be found.

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The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again


Of course most cult leaders don't prophesize their own death and resurrection. Not that I've ever been terribly impressed by the resurrection part (popping out and saying boo to a few people and then disappearing again). Imagine a world where the cult leader is publicly executed, and then appears the next day at the Temple, decrying authorities for their many sins as if nothing had happened?

Quote:
Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon's Colonnade. The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly."


Holy crap - I had no idea that Hannukah was mentioned in the Gospels. Thats awesome. The events were only 2 centuries back - there might have been people still living who remembered the last of the Maccabees line to rule(who ended up terrible tyrants, alas).

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"We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?


A reference to Psalm 82:6 - which in my translation uses Angels. The literal hebrew here is Elohim - gods (plurality given by context). It could also be used as divine (plural). It appears to be a metaphorical reference - so a twisted bit of logic on Jesus's part to escape a stoning that would certainly be justified.

Also - note that he says _your_ law, and not our. Another rejection of the validity of Torah law.
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rcbevco wrote:
Jesus still skirts the whole divinity thing and clearly refers to the father as not being himself.


Well, that makes sense, since the Father isn't Jesus.
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twomillionbucks wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
Jesus still skirts the whole divinity thing and clearly refers to the father as not being himself.


Well, that makes sense, since the Father isn't Jesus.


I was taught in Catechism that they are 3-in-1. When did Christianity become pantheistic?
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dtolman wrote:
A reference to Psalm 82:6 - which in my translation uses Angels. The literal hebrew here is Elohim - gods (plurality given by context). It could also be used as divine (plural). It appears to be a metaphorical reference - so a twisted bit of logic on Jesus's part to escape a stoning that would certainly be justified.


He's quoting the Septuagint, not the original Hebrew. Theos is used both in the Psalm and in Jesus' title for himself. It's a fair use of the passage.
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rcbevco wrote:
twomillionbucks wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
Jesus still skirts the whole divinity thing and clearly refers to the father as not being himself.


Well, that makes sense, since the Father isn't Jesus.


I was taught in Catechism that they are 3-in-1. When did Christianity become pantheistic?


It's not pantheistic:

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rcbevco wrote:
twomillionbucks wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
Jesus still skirts the whole divinity thing and clearly refers to the father as not being himself.


Well, that makes sense, since the Father isn't Jesus.


I was taught in Catechism that they are 3-in-1. When did Christianity become pantheistic?


The best part is that the whole 3-in-1 thing didn't become THE thing until the 4th century.
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jonb wrote:
I never heard this one. What is this all about. Can you elucidate what these time periods are

Quote:
becomes more clear that events are moving towards Jesus' death occurring at a pretty significant date on the Jewish calendar, the Passover, in a year that will even fulfill a prophecy - Daniel 9:26, "But after the sixty-two sets of seven time periods, the Anointed One will be cut off and have nothing."




Here's the passage from Daniel 9:

From Daniel 9 wrote:
“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’... After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. ... He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.


The "word to rebuild Jerusalem" went out from king Artaxerxes I around 458 BC. 69 (7+62) sevens of years later was 27 AD, when Jesus, "the Anointed One, the Ruler," was baptized, coming into his public ministry. Jesus confirmed God's covenant with many. About three years later ("In the middle of the seven"), Jesus put an end to sacrifice and offering with his substitutionary death on the cross, and was cut off and had nothing.
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twomillionbucks wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
twomillionbucks wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
Jesus still skirts the whole divinity thing and clearly refers to the father as not being himself.


Well, that makes sense, since the Father isn't Jesus.


I was taught in Catechism that they are 3-in-1. When did Christianity become pantheistic?


It's not pantheistic:



This sounds like new age spiritualism.

Did Depak Chopra come up with that explanation? "Since Jesus has quantum entanglements with God, so does 'the father' and the Holy Spirit. They are all both God and separate entities."

Is the Father Yahweh? If so why not call him that? Where are they in the Old Testament?

If you wonder why people are skeptics you need go no further than that chart. Something cannot be both "is" and "not is".
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edgerunner76 wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
twomillionbucks wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
Jesus still skirts the whole divinity thing and clearly refers to the father as not being himself.


Well, that makes sense, since the Father isn't Jesus.


I was taught in Catechism that they are 3-in-1. When did Christianity become pantheistic?


The best part is that the whole 3-in-1 thing didn't become THE thing until the 4th century.


Not so. It's true that most of the classical formulations of the doctrine of the Trinity have their roots in that era. But that's because the church was, at that time, responding to an influx of heresy in that area. The formulations of the doctrine from that time were defending an established teaching, not making a new one. Ample proof of this can be found in the trinitarian writings of earlier church fathers. Justin Martyr, for example:

Justin Martyr wrote:
We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein.


Emphasis mine. Neither three gods nor one god is particularly mysterious, so there is no reason for JM to have said this unless he was thinking in properly trinitarian terms.
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Is the Father Yahweh? If so why not call him that? Where are they in the Old Testament?


Yahweh refers to the whole unity of God. Isiah 45:21 reads, "Was it not I, Yahweh, besides whom there is no other God?" Any member of the Trinity can properly apply it to themselves.

Genesis 1:26 - "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness."
Genesis 11:7 - "Let us go down there an infuse their language."

Isiah 48:16 - "Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit." The speaker is God, and yet speaks of the Lord Good and his Spirit as distinct entities.


Quote:
If you wonder why people are skeptics you need go no further than that chart. Something cannot be both "is" and "not is".


It can if those are two different things. God is one in substance and three in person. That's not a contradiction, because person and substance aren't the same thing.
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If you mean physical manifestations maybe it works. Still all the same "being/substance" ergo 'my father isn't my father because I am he.' When did "The father" do anything separate from God to deserve his own identity? What is the justification for his "personhood"? At least J and the HS DO stuff.
(I feel like I'm arguing over which color socks leprechauns wear.)
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"The significance of a person's life is determined by the story they believe themselves to be in." - Wendell Berry "If nothing lies beyond the pale of death, then nothing of value lies before it." - SMBC
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rcbevco wrote:
If you mean physical manifestations maybe it works.


That's modelism, a heresy.

Quote:
Still all the same "being/substance" ergo 'my father isn't my father because I am he.'


Again, it's three in person, one in substance.

Here's a video about the Trinity that might help:



Quote:
When did "The father" do anything separate from God to deserve his own identity? What is the justification for his "personhood"? At least J and the HS DO stuff.


Anything any of the persons does, the whole of God does. However, he poured his wrath out on Jesus at the cross- that's pretty significant.


Quote:
(I feel like I'm arguing over which color socks leprechauns wear.)




Looks like green socks to me.
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Though important a pretty short resume.

I watched the video and pretty much got out of it, 'any logical (*cough*) explanation is heresy and you have to take it on faith'.

Based on that I think the socks are blue, because I believe they're blue.
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rcbevco wrote:
Though important a pretty short resume.


Sigh. Now you're just trying to impose arbitrary parameters on the issue. I could give you a long list of things the Father does according to scripture, but in the end, that's not going to change your mind about anything, is it?
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twomillionbucks wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
Though important a pretty short resume.


Sigh. Now you're just trying to impose arbitrary parameters on the issue. I could give you a long list of things the Father does according to scripture, but in the end, that's not going to change your mind about anything, is it?


If you mean the artificial construct of a trinity to explain away some of the inherent logical inconsistencies of the Bible, no.
I see not reason for it. It's like an unnecessary plot device. IMHO the difference between the three is meaningless.

Would something change your mind that the explanation sounds ridiculous?
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twomillionbucks wrote:
dtolman wrote:
A reference to Psalm 82:6 - which in my translation uses Angels. The literal hebrew here is Elohim - gods (plurality given by context). It could also be used as divine (plural). It appears to be a metaphorical reference - so a twisted bit of logic on Jesus's part to escape a stoning that would certainly be justified.


He's quoting the Septuagint, not the original Hebrew. Theos is used both in the Psalm and in Jesus' title for himself. It's a fair use of the passage.


Why would he be quoting a Greek translation to Aramaic and Hebrew speaking listeners?
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quozl wrote:
Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon's Colonnade. The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly."

Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

"We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

Well, Jesus is starting to sound like he's pretty swift of foot like The Flash because this is the second time that a crowd has tried to seize him but he manages somehow to elude them.

One such nick-in-time escape was a stretch enough as it was, and in light of that earlier event, Jesus had no business consorting with those whom he should already have suspected would treat him likewise.

What's more, the people are not to be faulted for asking Jesus Christ to straightforwardly confirm that he was or was not the Messiah because they all could not have witnessed each and every miracle he performed firsthand, indeed, if they had personally witnessed any of them at all.

My skepticism is stoked all the moreso by those who dodge questions and talk in ambiguous riddles. What's more, Jesus Christ wasn't the only Jewish messiah candidate who'd come down the pike. There were several others who'd prior claimed to be messiahs who wound up being charged for sedition by the Roman Empire and executed.

Unfortunately, in John 10, Jesus comes across as if he's reluctant and unwilling to own up to his claim to be the Messiah. Worse yet, He even high-tails it again to escape another crowd.

It would be interesting to compare and contrast how Jesus Christ acted both before and after his sojourn with his cousin, John The Baptist, because I'm more inclined to think that the latter would have been more apt to act as Jesus' pastoral coach and persuade Christ not to back down in the face of adversity and to affirm his divinity as straightforwardly and humbly as possible.


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twomillionbucks wrote:
Quote:
Is the Father Yahweh? If so why not call him that? Where are they in the Old Testament?


Yahweh refers to the whole unity of God. Isiah 45:21 reads, "Was it not I, Yahweh, besides whom there is no other God?" Any member of the Trinity can properly apply it to themselves.

Genesis 1:26 - "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness."
Genesis 11:7 - "Let us go down there an infuse their language."

Now where have I heard this before?

*Oh yes*, that's essentially the gist of the ancient Sumerian Creation story written more than 2,000 years before the Book of Genesis was ever written.

Only, the "Us" and the "Our" as in "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness" was spoken not by any invisible Creator deity (God spelled with a capital "G") but by the Annunaki/Nefilim (gods spelled with a small-letter "g").







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Interesting chapter....some comments below:
quozl wrote:
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
The image of Christ as the good shepherd is one of the great images of the New Testament. Especially relevant in relation to the parable of leaving the 99 sheep to go help the one....great symbolism that Christ stands ready to comfort each of his sheep individually.

quozl wrote:
I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father
This indicates that the Father and the Son are separate and distinct beings as opposed to a trinity. In the Garden of Gethsemane Christ prays to the Father and indicates that he will submit his will to the will of the father (again indicating separate beings with separate wills).

quozl wrote:
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
The Book of Mormon provides some add'l illumination on this passage.

quozl wrote:
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
This is a good definition of a Christian.
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What additional illumination does The Book of Mormon provide?
 
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