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Coup: Rebellion G54» Forums » Rules

Subject: "Additional Claim(s) of the Action" and Challenges rss

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Gillum the Stoor
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The rules for "Order of Steps in Actions & Challenges" identify five steps (the last being the taking of an action).

The first step is the claiming of the action and declaration of the target - and any challenges if it is a Role action.

The second step reads as follows: "Additional claim(s) of the action (If challenged, resolve now)."

I am wondering about specifics here, especially the case in which multiple additional claims are possible. Is it generally the case that all these additional claims are made before any challenges are issued?

Here are some specific examples that I can think of:

United Fruit Company
The card here is more specific than most: all claims by other players (of also having United Fruit Company) must be made before there are any challenges.

In what order must players make these claims? Counteractions are made in player order, so does that happen here?

Is the idea that you go around the table in order, and each player has the opportunity to claim United Fruit Company? After that, you go around again, and players have the opportunity to challenge each claimant?

Army, Church
Do these work like United Fruit Company?

You go around the table in order, and each player has the opportunity to claim the Army (or Church)? After that, you go around again, and players have the opportunity to challenge each claimant?

Lawyers
Similarly, do you go around the table in order (starting with the player after the one just eliminated), and each player has the opportunity to claim Lawyers? After that, you go around again, and players have the opportunity to challenge each claimant?

Communists
I don't know whether (or why) the beneficiary of the Communists would want to counteract (claim Communists). But, if they can, Communists could have two players counteracting, and similar questions would arise.
 
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Gillum the Stoor
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For the the original game, the designer wrote the following about multiple counters to Foreign Aid (i.e., multiple players claim the Duke):
Rikki wrote:
Action declared
Any Challenge(s) to action declared - resolved
Action taken
Any Counter action(s) declared
Any Challenge(s) to counter action declared - resolved
Counter action taken

So key issue here is that all the blocks have to be declared before challenges issued. If more than one then each has to be successfully challenged to get the foreign aid. If only one person blocks and is successfully challenged then it's too late for someone else to come in and block again. You can't go back.

That would suggest the following answers for Coup: Guatemala 1954:
- Players announce their desires to block Army or Church before any blocker is challenged.
- Players announce their desires for Probate from Lawyers before any Lawyer is challenged.
- Both players affected by Communists have the opportunity to block before either is challenged (makes sense only if the beneficiary can block).

The other thread didn't specify the order in which counters to Foreign Aid are made, so it doesn't answer the question here regarding the order of claims made for United Fruit Company, Army, Church, Lawyers, and Communists.
 
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Rikki Tahta
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gillum wrote:
For the the original game, the designer wrote the following about multiple counters to Foreign Aid (i.e., multiple players claim the Duke):
Rikki wrote:
Action declared
Any Challenge(s) to action declared - resolved
Action taken
Any Counter action(s) declared
Any Challenge(s) to counter action declared - resolved
Counter action taken

So key issue here is that all the blocks have to be declared before challenges issued. If more than one then each has to be successfully challenged to get the foreign aid. If only one person blocks and is successfully challenged then it's too late for someone else to come in and block again. You can't go back.

That would suggest the following answers for Coup: Guatemala 1954:
- Players announce their desires to block Army or Church before any blocker is challenged.
- Players announce their desires for Probate from Lawyers before any Lawyer is challenged.
- Both players affected by Communists have the opportunity to block before either is challenged (makes sense only if the beneficiary can block).

The other thread didn't specify the order in which counters to Foreign Aid are made, so it doesn't answer the question here regarding the order of claims made for United Fruit Company, Army, Church, Lawyers, and Communists.


In G54 the legal implementation is slightly different to foreign aid in City-state, and has to be in order to maintain a flow and avoid circular issues.

NOTE: we play the game loosely and only impose the due process when someone demands it because of game play.

Unless the reference card specifies otherwise: the due process is: starting from the player whose turn it is and going clockwise, everyone can make a claim and must be challenged and resolved then, before moving to the next player to make a claim and be challenged. Consequently you will not know who may claim afterwards and cannot pick and choose which claimant to challenge with perfect knowledge of who else is going to claim.

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Gillum the Stoor
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gillum wrote:
Army, Church
You go around the table in order, and each player has the opportunity to claim the Army (or Church)? After that, you go around again, and players have the opportunity to challenge each claimant?

Rikki wrote:
Unless the reference card specifies otherwise: the due process is: starting from the player whose turn it is and going clockwise, everyone can make a claim and must be challenged and resolved then, before moving to the next player to make a claim and be challenged. Consequently you will not know who may claim afterwards and cannot pick and choose which claimant to challenge with perfect knowledge of who else is going to claim.

I think that this implies that this is how it would work for Army (same for Church):

1. Active player declares a Purge using Army.
2. Any player can challenge the active player.
3. Resolve any challenge
4. If no successful challenge, active player pays $5.
5. For each player x in clockwise order:
5a. x can claim to have Army.
5b. Any play can challenge x.
5c. Resolve any challenge.
5d. If x did not claim Army or was challenged successfully, x loses a life.
(I.e., do 5a-d for x, then for x+1, etc.)

Thus, by the time it comes to x+1 to claim Army, either x lost at least one life - or claimed Army (perhaps having been unsuccessfully challenged).

This means that the later players may be less likely to claim Army - especially if earlier players did so and were unsuccessfully challenged.

I understand that it's easier to play more casually, but I wonder whether the ordering really needs to be applied in this case. If this "round the table" ordering isn't enforced, the alternative seems to be let targets jump in and say "I have Army" willy-nilly so that they can do get their claim first (when it is more credible).

With Church, of course, there's only $1 at stake.
 
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Gillum the Stoor
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I guess there could be similar issues around Lawyers.

If a player is eliminated, it may be advantageous to claim Lawyers quickly, before everyone else has done so and you are no longer credible.

Lawyers is different from Army and Church, because nothing happens (like losing a life or $1) to a player who does not claim Lawyers.

I guess you could say that players have an opportunity to claim Lawyers in turn order (starting with the player after the eliminated one?) - or it could be "first come first served."
 
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Rikki Tahta
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gillum wrote:
I guess there could be similar issues around Lawyers.

If a player is eliminated, it may be advantageous to claim Lawyers quickly, before everyone else has done so and you are no longer credible.

Lawyers is different from Army and Church, because nothing happens (like losing a life or $1) to a player who does not claim Lawyers.

I guess you could say that players have an opportunity to claim Lawyers in turn order (starting with the player after the eliminated one?) - or it could be "first come first served."


If in doubt do claims and challenges clockwise from the player who's turn it is
there is no race with Lawyers as once all challenges are done remaining lawyers divide the spoils

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Gillum the Stoor
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By "race" for Lawyers, I just meant that, for each Lawyer who claims and is not successfully challenged, the less believable will be later players who claim Lawyers. It seems that there would be an advantage to be the player whose claim of Lawyers has to be challenged first.
 
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