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Subject: Instant card timing rss

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Raph Moimoi
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When using an Athena card that allows every player to draw a card (Promesse d'hospitalité in french), if a player draws an instant card during the resolution of the first card, when does this instant ability triggers : immediately of after the first card has been totally resolved for every player ?

This may change things if the instant card allows every player to send a card to Elysium : if they're able to finish the first effect, they would have the opportunity to draw a new card that could be sent to Elysium when resolving the instant card.
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steven smolders
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Not sure if i understand your question.

But you have to discard a card to draw a card and put it into your domain.
Other players can discard one card + pay one gold to do the same.

But i'm pretty sure it happens in player order. So first player does his action and puts the new drawn card into his domain and maybe do the instant or any other action from that card. Then the second player goes and so on.
 
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Raph Moimoi
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Yes, but the card you draw triggers its power when entering your domain if it's an instant : when do you trigger it : immediately or after everybody resolved the initial card ?
 
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steven smolders
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i would say immidiately since it's in player order
 
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Brett J. Gilbert
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Pikaraph wrote:
When using an Athena card that allows every player to draw a card (Promesse d'hospitalité in french), if a player draws an instant card during the resolution of the first card, when does this instant ability triggers : immediately of after the first card has been totally resolved for every player ?

This may change things if the instant card allows every player to send a card to Elysium : if they're able to finish the first effect, they would have the opportunity to draw a new card that could be sent to Elysium when resolving the instant card.


If the card you draw is an Instant, it happens instantly, as soon as you receive it in your Domain. When 'Promesse d'hospitality' (Oath of Hospitality) is activated, first the active player receives a card (after discarding one, of course, as the card demands!). If the card the active player draws is an Instant, then the active player uses it power immediately, before the remaining players have the opportunity to use Oath of Hospitality themselves.

Once the active player is done using Oath (and has resolved the power of an Instant card, if drawn), the other players, in player order, may use Oath themselves. And, if one of the other players draw an Instant card it happens immediately (and is fully resolved), before any remaining players have the chance to use Oath themselves.

The primacy of turn order must always be respected, and is of course important when players are making transfers, since the order in which players make transfers may change which of the valuable Legend Bonuses a player acquires. This can matter during Phase II if certain cards are in the Agora or players' Domains, and may also be important during Phase III. Often players may be able to resolve their actions in Phase III simultaneously (if they choose), but turn order will always silently be at work and should be relied upon to resolve any possible disputes!
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Raph Moimoi
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Thanks for your answer ! cool
 
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alex dhs
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But what if the extra card you draw is not an instant but a card that you need to activate or a permanent one ?
Can I activate it and benefit from its power before the other players draw their extra card even if it is not an instant?
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Brett J. Gilbert
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reloadead wrote:
But what if the extra card you draw is not an instant but a card that you need to activate or a permanent one ?
Can I activate it and benefit from its power before the other players draw their extra card even if it is not an instant?

The short answer is "No!"

The slightly longer answer is as follows...

The power of an Instant card always happens — instantly! — when the card enters your Domain, which is usually on your turn, but may, by Athena's good graces for example, be on another player's turn.

Activate cards can only ever be used on your own turn, and at no other time. So, if you receive an Activate card out of turn you cannot use it until (at the earliest) your next turn, which could mean not until the next Epoch.

Permanent cards are "always on", and so are "on" even when it's not your turn (during other players' turns and during Phase III: Writing the Legends).

However, if a card you draw out of turn is a Permanent one, then there is no issue of timing. Permanent cards grant you an action or benefit if they are in your Domain and something *else* happens (such as you receiving or transferring a card of a specific Family).

Of course, if you already have a Permanent card in your Domain and draw a card out of turn that means you can use that Permanent card's power, then you may do so!
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alex dhs
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Thanks for the reply.
I was asking these questions considering I am the active player. So what prevents me from playing a bonus card that needs activation when I am the active player ?
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Brett J. Gilbert
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reloadead wrote:
Thanks for the reply.
I was asking these questions considering I am the active player. So what prevents me from playing a bonus card that needs activation when I am the active player ?

Ah. I see.

In that case, the correct play is to understand that the active player can only use Activate, Trigger or Eleusis cards in their Domain one at a time (but in any order).

Which means that if you activate Oath of Hospitality and this puts a new Activate, Trigger or Eleusis card in your Domain, then the power and actions of Oath must complete before you can continue your turn and so use another Activate, Trigger or Eleusis card.

So, simply put: Activate, Trigger and Eleusis cards cannot 'overlap' or interrupt each other — that way madness lies!
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alex dhs
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ok thanks.

So if my extra card is an instant card -> effect triggers immediately.
If it is a permanent card -> it will need conditions so no timing issue.
If it is an activate, trigger or elusis card -> I could trigger the effect after the current activate effect (oath of hospitality) is played by all players and then, before the next player takes his turn, I could trigger my new card.

I think I got it ! I hope so......

Combos cards games break minds
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Brett J. Gilbert
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reloadead wrote:
So if my extra card is an instant card -> effect triggers immediately.
If it is a permanent card -> it will need conditions so no timing issue.
If it is an activate, trigger or elusis card -> I could trigger the effect after the current activate effect (oath of hospitality) is played by all players and then, before the next player takes his turn, I could trigger my new card.

Good summary. Spot on!
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alex dhs
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thank you very much
 
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Nikolai
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55cards wrote:

So, simply put: Activate, Trigger and Eleusis cards cannot 'overlap' or interrupt each other — that way madness lies!


I had this question myself when first playing the game yesterday, great that you've already answered it here.
(Actually, I think a clarification on this should probably be in the next printing of the rulebook.)

I have a follow-up question on it which came up in my two games yesterday:
Does dismissing a column for taking a Family card count as part of "finishing" the card which cannot be interrupted by an Activate, Eleusis or Trigger power? Or is dismissing the column a separate step?
Or in other words, could I use one of those three powers between taking a family card in phase II and dismissing the column for taking it?

This could matter in combination with some Athena or Apollo cards that give me new information by drawing new cards (and adding them to my Domain or to the Oracle): Divine Law, Oath of Hospitality and Gathering of Heroes. Due to this new information, I might want to dismiss a differently colored column.
For example, could I take Gathering of Heroes and use its Trigger power (which adds two new cards to the Oracle) right away before deciding which column to dismiss?
 
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Brett J. Gilbert
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Darador wrote:
For example, could I take Gathering of Heroes and use its Trigger power (which adds two new cards to the Oracle) right away before deciding which column to dismiss?

The short answer is: Yes, you can do this!

In many, many cases the timing of when you choose to dismiss the Column during your turn has no effect on (and is not affected by) any other actions you might take, but your example is a good one.

The intention and spirit of the rules is that players are completely free to choose the most advantageous sequence for the individual actions they take on their turn. In that context, its probably helpful to consider 'dismissing a Column' to be a separate action (albeit one of the things that you must do at some point on your turn).
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Nikolai
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OK, thanks!

Let me use this opportunity to emphasize how much I appreciate it when the designer(s) of a game are active and readily answer questions here on the BGG forums! Thanks for that!
I actually added 0.5 points to my rating for Elysium when I saw how active you are here.
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Nikolai
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55cards wrote:

Once the active player is done using Oath (and has resolved the power of an Instant card, if drawn), the other players, in player order, may use Oath themselves. And, if one of the other players draw an Instant card it happens immediately (and is fully resolved), before any remaining players have the chance to use Oath themselves.


We had an even more complicated situation *twice* in a game yesterday:

Player 1 activated Oath of Hospitality (or maybe she triggered the other analogous possibility Divine Law, not sure anymore, but that shouldn't matter for the question as far as I can see). When she was done with her part of the effect, player 2 drew a card due to player 1's Oath of Hospitality: An Athena card with an Instantaneous power, Panathenaic Games. So when he was done with it, should the next thing to happen be that player 3 gets to use the power of player 1's Oath of Hospitality / Divine Law (followed by player 4) or should player 1 get to use player 2's Panathenaic Games first, followed by players 3 and 4, before players 3 and 4 finally get to use the Oath of Hospitality of player 1?
An analogous situation actually happened a second time in the same game, this time with the other Instantaneous Athena card, Trade Agreement, as the second card. Power use order was extremely important here, because a player later in the order needed the 1 Gold from Trade Agreement to be able to use Oath of Hospitality at all.

We decided to fully resolve the Instantaneous effect from Panathenaic Games / Trade Agreement first for all players before the players later in the order got to finally use the previous effect from Oath of Hospitality / Divine Law.

Was this correct?
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Brett J. Gilbert
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Darador wrote:
We decided to fully resolve the Instantaneous effect from Panathenaic Games / Trade Agreement first for all players before the players later in the order got to finally use the previous effect from Oath of Hospitality / Divine Law.

Was this correct?

Yes, that sounds spot on!

The Instantaneous powers effectively became 'nested' inside the sequence of player actions initiated by Oath of Hospitality/Divine Law, and it was the right and proper and entirely sensible thing to do to resolve the Instantaneous effect completely and indeed instantly (when else!?) before continuing to play out Oath/Divine Law.

And congratulations on playing a game in which this situation came up twice!
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Nikolai
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55cards wrote:

Yes, that sounds spot on!

The Instantaneous powers effectively became 'nested' inside the sequence of player actions initiated by Oath of Hospitality/Divine Law, and it was the right and proper and entirely sensible thing to do to resolve the Instantaneous effect completely and indeed instantly (when else!?)


Well, it wouldn't have been unreasonable to say that the effects other players can do are processed in the order they were drawn. It's kind of counterintuive to let them do the second card first. But on the other hand, it can also be considered intuitive to stick to the guideline "instantaneous goes first / can't be interrupted".
If the rule was the other way around (later players do the effects in card draw order), then we could even get siutations with three unfinished cards for which one player still has to do the effects (either Oath of Hospitality or Divine Law first and then both Panathenaic Games and Trade Agreement).
So your rule decision is probably the best one.

In any case, many thanks for the answer!
 
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