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Subject: Can the defender ever rangestrike? rss

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Will Pell
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I'm getting back into Titan after a long time, and I'm struggling to remember the rules while reading the rulebook. (For the record, I have the Avalon Hill version, in the purple box, and I wouldn't characterize its "Law of Titan" booklet as a well-written rules document.) The part that confusticates me the worst is this:

10.0: "...Battle is resolved in consecutive turns called Battle-Rounds, during which each player conducts a Maneuver Phase, followed by a mutual Strike Phase...the player whose Maneuver Phase preceded the Strike Phase strikes with his characters first."

10.3: "The defender always takes his Maneuver Phase first each Battle-Round."

So this makes it seem that in each Battle-Round, the defender will move, then the attacker will move, then the attacker will roll strikes, and then the defender will roll strikes (for all characters, including those who take lethal damage from the attacker's strikes). They failed to say it in those terms, but neither do I see anything stating that there's any alternation, where the attacker would get a turn at moving first, or the defender at striking first, during a particular Battle-Round. This seems particularly an issue in view of rule 13.0, where it describes Rangestriking:

"During a Strike Phase, the player who just completed the previous Maneuver Phase is entitled to employ Rangestriking; the opposing player may not employ Rangestriking this Strike Phase."

So does this mean that because the defender always Maneuvers before the Attacker, he can never Rangestrike? The language of the rules doesn't plainly state that, and instead seems to imply that the players alternate the roles of first-mover and first-striker every Battle-Round; I'm assuming there's a rule I've missed which would state so.
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Caleb
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Defender move
Defender range strike & Mutual strike phase
Attacker move
Attacker range strike & Mutual strike phase
Advance battle turn

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Will Pell
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cannoneer wrote:
Defender move
Defender range strike & Mutual strike phase
Attacker move
Attacker range strike & Mutual strike phase
Advance battle turn



Makes sense, but you know this how?
 
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Ray
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During a player's strike phase, you do all your strikes including range-strikes if possible. As you noted, only the active player can range-strike.

Range strikes are tricky because a clear LOS must exist, which is not easy sometimes. Warlocks on the other hand are master of range-strikes as their LOS is never block, and they have a skill of 4, so they can reach out and touch someone pretty easy.

One way to think about it is this:
1) active player maneuvers.
2) active player strikes (includes range strikes)
3) passive player counter strikes (cannot range strikes).
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Will Pell
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RayGuns wrote:
Range strikes are tricky because a clear LOS must exist, which is not easy sometimes. Warlocks on the other hand are master of range-strikes as their LOS is never block, and they have a skill of 4, so they can reach out and touch someone pretty easy.


*facepalm* I know all this. It has nothing to do with what I asked.

Quote:
During a player's strike phase, you do all your strikes including range-strikes if possible. As you noted, only the active player can range-strike.

One way to think about it is this:
1) active player maneuvers.
2) active player strikes (includes range strikes)
3) passive player counter strikes (cannot range strikes).


And for the third time, WHERE IS THIS IN THE RULES??? Nothing in the text I quoted says that there's any "active player/passive player" alternation; the defender would always move first, then the attacker would move and rangestrike while the defender strikes, and then the defender would move again, and the attacker would rangestrike again. Tell me where it says otherwise in the rules!
 
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Caleb
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You're getting yourself confused by the wording of 10.0:

10.0: "...Battle is resolved in consecutive turns called Battle-Rounds, during which each player conducts a Maneuver Phase, followed by a mutual Strike Phase...the player whose Maneuver Phase preceded the Strike Phase strikes with his characters first."

This does not mean that BOTH player conduct maneuver followed by mutual strike; it means EACH player does so (by themselves) followed by mutual strike.

Ask yourself if it makes sense that one side would never be able to rangestrike in battles.

And you're probably going to start getting some surly responses unless you moderate your tone.
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Kelly Bass
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willpell wrote:
10.0: "...Battle is resolved in consecutive turns called Battle-Rounds, during which each player conducts a Maneuver Phase, followed by a mutual Strike Phase...the player whose Maneuver Phase preceded the Strike Phase strikes with his characters first."

In that 2nd elipse, there is this:
During a player's Maneuver Phase he moves the characters of his engaged Legion on the Battleland to best position them for combat (see section 11.0, Maneuver Phase). After every Maneuver Phase follows a Strike Phase during which both players simultaneously strike the other's characters (sec sections 12.0 and 13.0, Strike Phases and Rangestriking). (emphasis mine)
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Dan Huffman
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willpell wrote:
cannoneer wrote:
Defender move
Defender range strike & Mutual strike phase
Attacker move
Attacker range strike & Mutual strike phase
Advance battle turn



Makes sense, but you know this how?


This might help:

Titan, Edition III, MMVIII, 13. Regular Striking wrote:

During a Strike Phase, both players attack with all of their characters that began the phase on the Battleland in contact with one or more enemy characters. The moving player resolves the strikes of all of his characters first, and only his characters may employ Rangestriking. Characters slain during a Strike Phase are not removed from play until the end of that phase, after they have had a chance to strike. Every character that can strike must do so, unless all adjacent enemy characters are already slain.
 
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Will Pell
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cannoneer wrote:
You're getting yourself confused by the wording of 10.0:

10.0: "...Battle is resolved in consecutive turns called Battle-Rounds, during which each player conducts a Maneuver Phase, followed by a mutual Strike Phase...the player whose Maneuver Phase preceded the Strike Phase strikes with his characters first."

This does not mean that BOTH player conduct maneuver followed by mutual strike; it means EACH player does so (by themselves) followed by mutual strike.


Hm. So that would mean that fourteen instances of striking, rather than seven, could theoretically happen in a battle.

Quote:
Ask yourself if it makes sense that one side would never be able to rangestrike in battles.


Of course it doesn't make sense, but that's not the point! I wouldn't have asked the question in the first place if not for the fact that I was confused as to what THE RULES OF THE GAME DICTATE. I can't just do whatever I feel like, not if I want to be able to play the game with other people; I need to know what the ACTUAL RULE IS, and since we'll all be looking at the same rulebook, I need to know what it really says. My best effort, today, at interpreting the Text As Written suggested that one player moved, then the other moved, then they both struck, and that this would happen only seven times before the battle ended, with the defender always moving first but never rangestriking. That didn't sound right, so I came to this forum to ask questions - but answers to those questions are worthless if they're not founded in the rulebook. Now that you've pointed out this interpretation of the text, it seems equally correct (and more fun to play), but it's not what I initially took those sentences as meaning, and that's not some failing on my part. "Making sense" has nothing to do with it; if the game had to make sense, it wouldn't take place on a precisely symmetrical map where every land is an identically-sized hexagon. It's a GAME; that means its reality is solely defined by its rules, no matter what nonsense those rules might appear to be. You either play the game by the rules as they are, or you invent "house rules", which other players are under no obligation to agree with, and risk never finding any other opponents (and Titan isn't a game that you can really play by yourself).

Quote:
And you're probably going to start getting some surly responses unless you moderate your tone.


I was the one MAKING a surly response, because two people in a row responded to my question without actually answering it. You have done better in that regard, for which I thank you. But if you asked someone what time it was and their response was to discuss the history of clockmaking, you'd probably be testy with them too. So my tone was in no way unreasonable under the circumstances. If someone asks a question (to a group of people, whether a physical crowd or an open forum on the Internet, as opposed to them directly addressing you in particular), you either answer the question they asked, or you stay silent and let someone else do. You don't just say some random unrelated thing and then pretend that this is the answer they requested; that's obviously just going to annoy them, and they then have a right to be annoyed with you.
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Neil Christiansen
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Well, I know it to be true because Dave Trampier taught me how to play. And that is how he played (R.I.P.).
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Neil Christiansen
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BTW, those people you are telling what they can and cannot post in a public forum were actually trying to help. And they deserved better than your responses.
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David desJardins
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willpell wrote:
10.0: "...Battle is resolved in consecutive turns called Battle-Rounds, during which each player conducts a Maneuver Phase, followed by a mutual Strike Phase...the player whose Maneuver Phase preceded the Strike Phase strikes with his characters first."


This is written in a kind of ambiguous way. The punctuation is also not ideal. Taken alone, you could read this as:

(1) Each player conducts a Maneuver Phase. Then, after both players have taken their Maneuver Phases, there is a mutual Strike Phase.

(2) Each player conducts "a Maneuver Phase, followed by a mutual Strike Phase." First one player takes his Maneuver phase followed by a mutual Strike Phase, then the other player takes his Manever phase followed by a mutual Strike Phase.

Parsing #2 is correct. Parsing #1 is consistent with this paragraph but doesn't fit with some of the other rules.

Certainly this could have been better written. But it was 35 years ago, it's hard to hold anyone responsible at this point.
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Caleb
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willpell wrote:


Quote:
And you're probably going to start getting some surly responses unless you moderate your tone.


I was the one MAKING a surly response, because two people in a row responded to my question without actually answering it. You have done better in that regard, for which I thank you. But if you asked someone what time it was and their response was to discuss the history of clockmaking, you'd probably be testy with them too. So my tone was in no way unreasonable under the circumstances. If someone asks a question (to a group of people, whether a physical crowd or an open forum on the Internet, as opposed to them directly addressing you in particular), you either answer the question they asked, or you stay silent and let someone else do. You don't just say some random unrelated thing and then pretend that this is the answer they requested; that's obviously just going to annoy them, and they then have a right to be annoyed with you.


Wow. Just...wow.

I retract my helpful comments.

have a nice day
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Will Pell
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chris1nd wrote:
BTW, those people you are telling what they can and cannot post in a public forum were actually trying to help. And they deserved better than your responses.


Trying to help is only admirable if you accidentally succeed. Feeding a starving man styrafoam is not helpful; it might relieve his hunger pangs, but in so doing it only deceives him into thinking the problem is solved, when in fact it is not. I am honestly grateful to those who actually help me, not those who merely convince themselves that they have. The latter's own self-delusion that they've done the other a favor (regardless of whether the other is me), thereby bolstering their self-esteem without them having to actually accomplish anything, is already more reward than they deserve. Gratitude is like money - if you can just create it out of nothing, without having to earn it at a dear cost, then it is worth nothing.

DaviddesJ wrote:
This is written in a kind of ambiguous way. The punctuation is also not ideal.


Thank you. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who thought so. (Case in point; I award thanks to those who actually help, even if it's only a little.)

Quote:
Parsing #2 is correct. Parsing #1 is consistent with this paragraph but doesn't fit with some of the other rules.


By 'some other', do you mean the exact section on rangestriking that I quoted, or are there others? I'm already willing to accept that this interpretation is probably the right one, but I'd like to get as much confirmation as possible before I resume Actual Play. Granted, I might eventually decide "the official rules are crap, I'm going to have to houserule this" regardless, but that is a last resort.

Quote:
But it was 35 years ago, it's hard to hold anyone responsible at this point.


By a remarkable coincidence, the game's age is almost identical to my own.
 
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Kelly Bass
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willpell wrote:
(Case in point; I award thanks to those who actually help, even if it's only a little.)
I actually thought my rules quote was helpful.
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Neil Christiansen
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The irony is that the OP never had an actual question about how the game is played. Somebody just wanted to complain about the wording of the rules.

I have never met a gamer before that so willfully tried to misconstrue the rules of a game.

"Battle is resolved in consecutive turns called Battle Rounds, during which each player conducts a Maneuver Phase, followed by a mutual Strike Phase."

"During a Strike Phase both players attack with all of their characters that began the phase on the Battleland in contact with one or more enemy characters. The player whose Maneuver Phase immediately preceded the Strike Phase resolves the strikes of all of his characters first, and only his characters may employ Rangestriking (see 13.0, Rangestriking)."

"During a Strike Phase, the player who just completed the previous Maneuver Phase is entitled to employ rangestriking; the opposing player may not employ rangestriking this Strike Phase."

Any possible ambiguity was dispelled in the first reply, which was dismissed since it addressed how to actually play the game rather than the wording of the rules.

Please put me down as a gamer who could hardly care less about the wording of the rules. All I care about is how to actually play the games.

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Neil Christiansen
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BTW, the all-caps shouting thing (for emphasis) got old on BITNET and USENET around the same time you were born.
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David desJardins
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To the OP: I have a hard time with the people who are criticizing you, too. Don't let them get you down.
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Will Pell
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chockle wrote:
willpell wrote:
(Case in point; I award thanks to those who actually help, even if it's only a little.)
I actually thought my rules quote was helpful.


It is actually. I didn't see it until just now; you must have posted it while I was working on another post, and I didn't think to read upthread. I do apologize for that; it is the definitive answer I was looking for, so my thanks to you, specifically. (And *some* thanks to Cannoneer/Spartacus, whose first comment was not but whose second improved on it; I didn't initially catch the fact that both were by the same person.)
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Will Pell
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chris1nd wrote:
The irony is that the OP never had an actual question about how the game is played. Somebody just wanted to complain about the wording of the rules. I have never met a gamer before that so willfully tried to misconstrue the rules of a game.


This is false. I was in fact unclear, having been away from the game for a long time. But someone just telling me "no, it works this way" is no more helpful than someone telling me it's legal to use cocaine; I need documented proof that something is definitely true, or else it's just rumor and hearsay which can't be trusted.


Quote:
Any possible ambiguity was dispelled in the first reply, which was dismissed since it addressed how to actually play the game rather than the wording of the rules.

Please put me down as a gamer who could hardly care less about the wording of the rules. All I care about is how to actually play the games.


You think those things are somehow different? If I "taught" you how to play chess, but told you that all the pieces can move like a queen or a knight as you prefer, you'd know how to play a game - it just wouldn't be chess, or anything vaguely resembling chess. You have to know the absolute correct rules, or else you're playing a different game, and that's a problem when the other players are following the rules of the original game correctly.

chris1nd wrote:
BTW, the all-caps shouting thing (for emphasis) got old on BITNET and USENET around the same time you were born.


I do it sometimes because it's marginally easier than mousing up to the Bold and Italic buttons; CTRL-B and CTRL-I don't work on this interface, or I'd use those.
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John David Galt
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Will Pell wrote:
Makes sense, but you know this how?

You must be new to the Titan community. You're the only one I've seen on BGG who doesn't already know that the definitive, and accepted, Titan clarifications are on Bruno Wolff's fine web site, http://wolff.to/titan/ .

I don't blame you for not knowing. But neither is it everyone else's fault that you didn't. Can we all just play nice now?
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Neil Christiansen
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BTW, all of this was answered in a previous rules post:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/334930/combat-movement-and-a...

There are only two pages on the rules fora.
 
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Will Pell
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jdgalt wrote:
Will Pell wrote:
Makes sense, but you know this how?

You must be new to the Titan community.


Yep. I pretty much just played it with two IRL friends back in the day. Ironically, I'm losing Internet at the end of this month, so my stay in this community will be pretty brief. But I've saved a copy of the Wolff document to my computer, so I should be alright in future. Thanks to everyone involved in getting me this document.

Quote:
I don't blame you for not knowing. But neither is it everyone else's fault that you didn't. Can we all just play nice now?


That depends on the die roll for the turn.

chris1nd wrote:
BTW, all of this was answered in a previous rules post:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/334930/combat-movement-and-a...

There are only two pages on the rules fora.


I use this when navigating BGG; Titan as a whole has like 27 pages of threads. The page for the Rules subsection is much harder on my eyes, and it wouldn't even have occurred to me to go specifically look at it, had you not suggested this, and I'll forget that you did in a few days. Ultimately, BGG doesn't have great site design compared to the message boards I'm used to; perhaps the sheer volume of information which it organize necessitates a simple and rather pasted-together look, but the result is that it's not what I regard as a "user-friendly" website. I didn't start using it heavily until a few months ago, and only did that because the official boards for the game in question banned me, so I had to seek an alternate channel for discussing it, even a suboptimal one like BGG's attempt at a forum. Titan is only the second game which has interested (or confused) me enough that I needed to forum-discuss it, and in this case BGG was my starting point, because if Titan has official boards at all, they're probably on the atrocious Wizards Community forum (since Hasbro owns Wotco which owns TSR which owns Avalon Hill), which is the single worst piece of website layout I've ever seen.
 
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Karl Brobakk
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Howdy!

I have not played this game for about 15-20 years, but we used to play it alot. It seems like we have not understood the rules the way they are suppose to be played.

We did battles this way:
1. Defender moves
2. Attacker moves
3. Close combat and attacker range strikes.
4. Remove casualties.
5. Advance battle turn.

Am I correct that it is suppose to be like this:

1. Defender moves
2. Defender range strikes & Mutual strike phase
3. Remove casualties ???
4. Attacker moves
5. Attacker range strikes & Mutual strike phase
6. Remove casualties
7. Advance battle turn

And if step 3 is correct, will a summoned angel get into play during step 4 the very same turn, or will you get the angel after you have completed step 7?
 
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Kris Giesing
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Your second description is closer to accurate. Angels are summoned on the first movement phase after a defending unit has been killed and removed from the Battleland (assuming the attacker has Angels to summon, from Legions not waiting for future engagements, and has not summoned previously in that game turn).

As mentioned up thread, there is a lot of detail that clarifies the sequence of play here: http://wolff.to/titan/errata.html

In particular look for step 2.5.5 of the Simplified Sequence of Play, or 2.5.6.4.1 and 2.5.6.4.2 of the Complete Sequence of Play.
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