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Subject: March Attrition (2nd Edition Rules) rss

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Nap Player
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Hi,

In the original rules if there was more than one cause of march attrition the "lowest" march attrition roll was used when determining losses.

In the 2nd Edition rules it now appears that each cause of march attrition counts as a separate march attrition roll. Is this correct?

It also now appears that march attrition effects take place immediately and not at the end of the move, as was the case before. Is this also correct?

If so, as spent corps have a movement rating 1 lower than when fresh, is the original 1 movement rating reduction for moving in winter now waved? If not, moving in winter would effectively reduce the armies movement allowance by 2.

Here is my interpretation of the rules applied to an example. Please comment and let me know if I am interpreting the rules correctly.

Example:

It is the 1st winter round of the campaign phase, and Ney (4-4-4) starts the round stacked with 3 other corps in Aquitaine. He moves his army into Provence, and his entire army becomes spent due to march attrition (moving any distance in winter) but no march attrition roll is required (all corps were previously fresh). His new movement rating is now 3 due to being spent. As he has already moved 1 area, he can move 2 more areas this round. He chooses to enter Italia. His already spent army must now check for march attrition as they have moved an area in winter. The roll is 5 on the 4-corps army column of the march attrition table and 1 corps must be removed as a permanent loss. Ney now enters Schweiz, which ends his move for the round. His army must now check 3 times on the march attrition table - once for moving 3 areas in a single round, once for moving an area in winter, and once for entering a mountainous area. The results of each roll are applied before the next. For entering a third area in the same round, a roll is made on the 3-corps column of the march attrition table. The roll is a 2 and 1 corps is permanently lost. For moving an area in winter, a second roll is made, this time on the 2-corps column of the march attrition table. The roll is a 4 and no corps are lost. For entering a mountainous area a third roll is made, again on the 2-corps column of the march attrition table. This time the roll is 2 and 1 more corps is permanently lost. Ney's spent corps finally makes camp in Schweiz, all other corps having been lost during the tortuous winter march.
 
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Niko Ruf
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NapPlayer wrote:
In the 2nd Edition rules it now appears that each cause of march attrition counts as a separate march attrition roll. Is this correct?

It also now appears that march attrition effects take place immediately and not at the end of the move, as was the case before. Is this also correct?


We struggled with the same problem in our first game under the revised rules yesterday. Our solution was to apply attrition only after a move was finished, since it would be impossible to move 4 areas otherwise (except with a forced march). Also, we read it that "moved 3 or 4 areas" is a single cause of attrition and not 2.
 
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Niko Ruf wrote:
We struggled with the same problem in our first game under the revised rules yesterday. Our solution was to apply attrition only after a move was finished, since it would be impossible to move 4 areas otherwise (except with a forced march). Also, we read it that "moved 3 or 4 areas" is a single cause of attrition and not 2.


There seems to be an error in the "sample game" in the 2nd edition rules in that it says Massena moves to the Papa States to pick up St. Cyr then moves to Tirol to attack Mack and Ferdinand, becoming spent for entering a mountainous area. According to these rules they would also need to make a march attrition check for moving 3 areas in a single round.
 
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Renaud Verlaque
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NapPlayer wrote:
Hi,

In the original rules if there was more than one cause of march attrition the "lowest" march attrition roll was used when determining losses.

In the 2nd Edition rules it now appears that each cause of march attrition counts as a separate march attrition roll. Is this correct?

It also now appears that march attrition effects take place immediately and not at the end of the move, as was the case before. Is this also correct?

If so, as spent corps have a movement rating 1 lower than when fresh, is the original 1 movement rating reduction for moving in winter now waved? If not, moving in winter would effectively reduce the armies movement allowance by 2.

Here is my interpretation of the rules applied to an example. Please comment and let me know if I am interpreting the rules correctly.

Example:

It is the 1st winter round of the campaign phase, and Ney (4-4-4) starts the round stacked with 3 other corps in Aquitaine. He moves his army into Provence, and his entire army becomes spent due to march attrition (moving any distance in winter) but no march attrition roll is required (all corps were previously fresh). His new movement rating is now 3 due to being spent. As he has already moved 1 area, he can move 2 more areas this round. He chooses to enter Italia. His already spent army must now check for march attrition as they have moved an area in winter. The roll is 5 on the 4-corps army column of the march attrition table and 1 corps must be removed as a permanent loss. Ney now enters Schweiz, which ends his move for the round. His army must now check 3 times on the march attrition table - once for moving 3 areas in a single round, once for moving an area in winter, and once for entering a mountainous area. The results of each roll are applied before the next. For entering a third area in the same round, a roll is made on the 3-corps column of the march attrition table. The roll is a 2 and 1 corps is permanently lost. For moving an area in winter, a second roll is made, this time on the 2-corps column of the march attrition table. The roll is a 4 and no corps are lost. For entering a mountainous area a third roll is made, again on the 2-corps column of the march attrition table. This time the roll is 2 and 1 more corps is permanently lost. Ney's spent corps finally makes camp in Schweiz, all other corps having been lost during the tortuous winter march.


All correct (though I did not check the die rolls against the table -- I trust you read them right) except that the movement allowance is set at start and not modified by a subsequent reduction of the MR.
 
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Renaud Verlaque
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Niko Ruf wrote:
NapPlayer wrote:
In the 2nd Edition rules it now appears that each cause of march attrition counts as a separate march attrition roll. Is this correct?

It also now appears that march attrition effects take place immediately and not at the end of the move, as was the case before. Is this also correct?


We struggled with the same problem in our first game under the revised rules yesterday. Our solution was to apply attrition only after a move was finished, since it would be impossible to move 4 areas otherwise (except with a forced march). Also, we read it that "moved 3 or 4 areas" is a single cause of attrition and not 2.


Sorry but you must apply attrition each cause, and in this case it means both after entering the 3rd area and then again if you make it to a 4th area.
 
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Renaud Verlaque
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NapPlayer wrote:
Niko Ruf wrote:
We struggled with the same problem in our first game under the revised rules yesterday. Our solution was to apply attrition only after a move was finished, since it would be impossible to move 4 areas otherwise (except with a forced march). Also, we read it that "moved 3 or 4 areas" is a single cause of attrition and not 2.


There seems to be an error in the "sample game" in the 2nd edition rules in that it says Massena moves to the Papa States to pick up St. Cyr then moves to Tirol to attack Mack and Ferdinand, becoming spent for entering a mountainous area. According to these rules they would also need to make a march attrition check for moving 3 areas in a single round.


Actually, if I am not mistaken, the Papal States connect directly to Tirol, so it is only a 2-area move.
 
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Niko Ruf
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Renaud Verlaque wrote:
Sorry but you must apply attrition each cause, and in this case it means both after entering the 3rd area and then again if you make it to a 4th area.


Thanks for the clarification. Does this mean that an army with MR (move rate) 4 can only move 3 areas unless using force march? Or is MA (move allowance) calculated at the beginning of the move and not changed retroactively as troops become spent?
 
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Renaud Verlaque
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Niko Ruf wrote:
Renaud Verlaque wrote:
Sorry but you must apply attrition each cause, and in this case it means both after entering the 3rd area and then again if you make it to a 4th area.


Thanks for the clarification. Does this mean that an army with MR (move rate) 4 can only move 3 areas unless using force march? Or is MA (move allowance) calculated at the beginning of the move and not changed retroactively as troops become spent?


Since the rules don't state that the movement allowance should be adjusted down if an army's MR drops on the way due to becoming spent, it is fair to say that the movement allowance of an army is set at start and is not modified intra-round. Therefore an army may still potentially move up to 5 areas if it has an MR at start of 4 and uses an FM card, and no, it will not have to suffer attrition for entering that 5th area because it will already have been penalized for the FM card in the 3rd and 4th areas.
 
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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Do note that while MA is fixed at the start of the move, MR is reduced immediately upon becoming spent, which means it is easier for the enemy to intercept or withdraw. Very crucial.
 
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Renaud Verlaque wrote:
it will not have to suffer attrition for entering that 5th area because it will already have been penalized for the FM card in the 3rd and 4th areas.


Now I am confused. The MA is determined at the beginning of the move, you say, so that's when the Forced March card has to be played. In the v2.0 rules it's said that entering an area during a Forced March causes March Attrition. The same rules also say that you're penalized for each cause. I would therefore conclude that there are 2 march attrition causes for entering the 3rd area, if you survived this: also 2 causes for entering the 4th area, and if you survived that: also 1 cause for entering the 5th area. Where's the flaw in my interpretation?

 
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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You suffer March Attrition from Forced March ONLY in the first area entered -- I believe the design intent is that troops that force march are spent immediately.
 
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Renaud Verlaque
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ziph4 wrote:
Renaud Verlaque wrote:
it will not have to suffer attrition for entering that 5th area because it will already have been penalized for the FM card in the 3rd and 4th areas.


Now I am confused. The MA is determined at the beginning of the move, you say, so that's when the Forced March card has to be played. In the v2.0 rules it's said that entering an area during a Forced March causes March Attrition. The same rules also say that you're penalized for each cause. I would therefore conclude that there are 2 march attrition causes for entering the 3rd area, if you survived this: also 2 causes for entering the 4th area, and if you survived that: also 1 cause for entering the 5th area. Where's the flaw in my interpretation?



Sorry for yet another ambiguous answer on my part in my haste to respond. I focused on the 3rd, 4th and 5th areas because the situation related to a move that equalled or exceeded 3 areas. You are correct that if using an FM card, you become subject to march attrition from the 1st area on. Thats is what the rule says and that is what I meant it to say.

 
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Renaud Verlaque
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Geez, and I thought I wrote this section in the most unambiguous way possible! Oh well...
 
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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Ick. I'm batting .000 in AoN rules interpretations these days...
That makes forced march really costly...
 
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Renaud Verlaque
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The rules do say "any area"

Yes, FMing is costly, but now you do get to use that card to move without having to discarding another card and that extra movement allowance or movement rating point can really prove useful some times.
 
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Niko Ruf
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To get this straight: How many causes of attrition do we get if Napoleon's corps (MR 4) uses a force march to move 5 areas through ordinary terrain? Let's see:

1. area: 1 cause (FM)
2. area: 1 cause (FM)
3. area: 2 causes (FM + 3rd area)
4. area: 2 causes (FM + 4th area)
5. area: 1 cause (FM)

That means 7 rolls on the table (or 6 if all corps start fresh, in which case they only become spent on the first cause). Is this correct?
 
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Nap Player
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I am having trouble understanding why these changes have been made. The main effect is to make it practically impossible to force march or to move any great distance in winter. Now, I can understand that maybe before it was not costly enough to do these things, and perhaps Renaud wanted to simulate things like Napoleon's extremely costly retreat from Moscow, but I'm not sure this is the right way to do it.

Just as an example, if we assume an average die of 3 or 4 for each march attrition roll, then an army of 5 corps using forced march to move 5 areas is going to lose, on average, 3 corps. That is a lot worse than in the original rules, and in my opinion makes forced march (or moving in winter, which has similar penalties) too costly to use under any circumstances.
 
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Niko Ruf
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Renaud Verlaque wrote:
Geez, and I thought I wrote this section in the most unambiguous way possible! Oh well...


Don't worry. I think the rules are not ambiguous per se, but we have preconceptions from the first version where march attrition was less taxing.

E.g., I read "entering any area while force marching" as "FM is one extra cause of attrition" not because that is the actual meaning of the sentence but because it was handled like this in the old rules, IIRC.
 
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Renaud Verlaque wrote:

Geez, and I thought I wrote this section in the most unambiguous way possible!

As Niko says, it might well be just us...

However, could you please clarify the following? (Bold added by myself)
Renaud Verlaque wrote:

You are correct that if using an FM card, you become subject to march attrition from the 1st area on.

Renaud Verlaque wrote:

using a FM is a cause of march attrition from the 1st area entered onto the 4th (but not the 5th).


How can these two statements not contradict each other? Why is the 5th area exempted?
 
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Renaud Verlaque
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Niko's run-down is correct and if you read the rules without preconceptions (and not my sometimes ambiguous answers on this forum), I think it is pretty clear.

FM causes attrition in all areas entered, including the 5th if the move takes the army that far. However, the "long-range" march attrition applies only to the 3rd and 4th areas, not the 5th.

[ziph, I removed my erroneous statement to keep this thread as clean as possible]




 
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Renaud Verlaque
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NapPlayer wrote:
I am having trouble understanding why these changes have been made. The main effect is to make it practically impossible to force march or to move any great distance in winter. Now, I can understand that maybe before it was not costly enough to do these things, and perhaps Renaud wanted to simulate things like Napoleon's extremely costly retreat from Moscow, but I'm not sure this is the right way to do it.

Just as an example, if we assume an average die of 3 or 4 for each march attrition roll, then an army of 5 corps using forced march to move 5 areas is going to lose, on average, 3 corps. That is a lot worse than in the original rules, and in my opinion makes forced march (or moving in winter, which has similar penalties) too costly to use under any circumstances.


March attrition rules can be die-intensive and deadly, yes, and a design note makes it clear that it is the case when facing multiple causes of attrition.

Is march attrition too deadly? I don't think so as it fits the story board well (the Retreat from Russia among others, as you correctly point out). Is it too die-intensive? Perhaps, but that's the only way I could find to deal with multiple causes of march attrition, some of which apply to the entire move and others that apply to specific areas (e.g., mountains).

I also truly believe that it is (or should be) much easier to understand and more comprehensive than the 1st ed rules.

It may be fair to say, though, that this level of granularity might be excessive in a game of AoN's scale, but it does not bother me much, just don't subject yourself to it unless it's really worth it or you can't avoid it (Napoleon did not have much choice in Russia).
 
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Niko Ruf wrote:
5. area: 1 cause (FM)


Niko's run-down is exactly how I read the rules: with FM as a march attrition cause for the 5th area.
 
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