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Subject: why should i not always just start with offering? rss

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Garyp
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So we have only played 3 times but each time we have had one and then more players go through the following opening turns:

Turn 1 - discard 5 cards to Minerva - draw to 5 cards plus 5 bonus cards
Turn 2 - discard 10 cards to Ceres - get 10 resources and draw to 5 cards
Turn 3 - discard 5 cards to Minerva - draw to 5 cards plus 5 bonus cards
Turn 4 - discard 10 cards to Neptune - get 20 coins and draw to 5 cards

And of course you are gaining a building from your supply each turn and can now start your building program with an abundance of resources.

This tactic has sort of blitzed the more "usual" start of going directly into building but if it is the required starting routine then why not just start the game with more resources and save several prescribed turns - or are we doing something illegal or maybe just dumb.

Thanks for any comments - gary


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rain
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Discarding for your first and/or second turn is pretty normal in Deus. The main thing is that you are giving up board position by doing so, since you cannot put your first building within two spaces of any existing buildings. If your opponents are also discarding, this isn't a problem, but a single player with mobile armies can quickly eliminate many potential starting points.

I have never seen it get to the point where a player was completely unable to put down a card, but I have seen it such that there is only a single land space available, for example. If you discard for 4 turns in a row, that may be enough time for your opponents to lock you out of the game.
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Christian K
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We have found the arms race (red) quite important. The game can end quickly, it it can be risky spending 4 turns this way.

What is the advantage of doing this in the beginning of the game? You can always do it later when you need the resources.
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Jan-Willem van Leeuwen
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I agree that offering in the first round is usually a good move. But if you have a good production or military card in hand at the start, then it can be better to build that first. If you start with good starting cards and put them all into the offering you will probably get bad cards back (bad to start with anyway).
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Ben Rubinstein

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It all depends on the layout of the board and cards in hand.

The "Ballista" card is extremely powerful! If I have a ballista, and there are any spaces that border two barbarian spaces, I will definitely play ballista first turn. At minimum, it costs 1 resource and gets you 4 gold. But it could possibly get you 8 gold on turn 1 for only 1 resource! Even if that needed space is away from the borer, if I have a Temporary Camps, I'll use it to sneak up to that space, because that space can be optimized for both ballista AND siege tower.

A similar situation, although slightly less powerful, is if I can abuse Trading Posts. These work in a very similar way to ballistas. Meaning, if I have a Sawmp trading post, and it will be easy to get at least 2 swamps early on, I'll go that route. Plus, that will help direct me toward looking for Swamp VP guilds or Swamp temples.

Making offerings early can be very strong, however, if I have one of the above situations, I'll take the over an offering any day. As someone else mentioned, you can always offer later.
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Chad Ackerman
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The first two turns you describe are pretty typical, although it's still worth holding onto or playing one of the stronger early game cards when you have them.

I don't think discarding cards for the coins so early in the game will be all that great. There's generally much better ways to get gold as you expand.
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Jeff Thornsen
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Getting your foot into the right corner of the map is critical. It really sucks to be forced to build your first piece surrounded by water, or far away from the barbarian camps.

The game is largely a race. If you spend 4 turns dumping cards over and over, it probably means that you won't be able to build a 2nd or 3rd Temple in time before the game ends.

At least for me, my goal is to build as many turns as possible, so I can get a 3rd Temple and end the game with more Temples than any other player.
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Lionel Graveleau
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Reasons not to begin by offering :

- you are late to choose where to start on the board (there are often better place than others)
- you begin with 4 ressources+5gold. It's enough to build your 3-4 first buildings.
- Which ressources take in the 10 you get ? At the beginning you don't know what you'll need (especially if you choose a sail strategy and convert ressources-> PV)
- You can play by getting ressources with the effects of the cards and drive all the game by this way.
- It's a Race, as soon as you build, as soon you occupy spaces and have some cards which can be activated again by some next cards.
- you can have some good combos with your starting hand. The better offering is the one when you discard some card you don't need.
- you have time to do such a huge offering. It's better for me to first build some engine and then make an offering. You see though you hand 10+10 cards: if you already have some cards built, you'll probably see through these 20 cards some of them suitable with your strategy and keep them.

Starting with an offering is sure confortable, but for me not very efficient (at the begining ). It's more important to well use the cards and try to use the less you can offerings (offering is a powerfull action especially if you are interested at the same time by discard useless card + use the power + get a piece of building you need).
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Peter Schoeler
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I'm currently playing a 2 person game where after 6 turns my opponent has collected 10 wood, 10 clay, 9 stone and 3 wheat. There is only 7 wheat left in the reserve. HE has yet to play a building.

There are too many place to block him out, and if I tried he could simply build a military unit and move it around.

Basically I can only get resources now after he spends them. We'll see how it plays out but I don't see how i can win. The 4 villages are 5443 so it will take quite a while to surround them.

Is the only solution to follow suit and get your share of resources ?
 
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rain
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pschoel wrote:
I'm currently playing a 2 person game where after 6 turns my opponent has collected 10 wood, 10 clay, 9 stone and 3 wheat. There is only 7 wheat left in the reserve. HE has yet to play a building.

There are too many place to block him out, and if I tried he could simply build a military unit and move it around.

Basically I can only get resources now after he spends them. We'll see how it plays out but I don't see how i can win. The 4 villages are 5443 so it will take quite a while to surround them.

Is the only solution to follow suit and get your share of resources ?


Remember that they cannot play within 2 spaces of any of your buildings. It may be easier to block them out than you think, at least in terms of land spaces.

In that kind of game, the key for you will probably be coin generation, since that will let you ignore the resource game. So green buildings are much less attractive, and blue buildings that trade resources are kind of pointless. The cool thing about Deus is that you can win without either.

Edit: If the game is online, I'd love to see it. Could you post or mail the link?
 
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Peter Schoeler
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http://www.boiteajeux.net/jeux/deu/partie.php?id=12381

I'm playing to learn so any advice is welcome.
 
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rain
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pschoel wrote:
http://www.boiteajeux.net/jeux/deu/partie.php?id=12381

I'm playing to learn so any advice is welcome.




If orange places a building on the pink star, then blue will have no legal locations available to place their first building. I assume then the game would continue, with blue unable to make non-sacrifice plays. Presumably, orange will then win.
 
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Jeff Thornsen
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Aren't you allowed to pay the penalty (3VP?) to break the rule and start near another player? Same thing for jumping to another side of the board.

I don't think it's possible to actually block a player out from the map, unless you somehow occupied every single border region.
 
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rain
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Faranim wrote:
Aren't you allowed to pay the penalty (3VP?) to break the rule and start near another player?


Nope.
 
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Peter Schoeler
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but the rules state that it "2 spaces .... if possible."

The best i could do was force him to play on the swamp on right side.
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joe sedita
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I am pretty sure you are wrong about the first building of each player needing to be two spaces away from any other building; the rules don't say this.

They say, on page 4, section 4: "The first regions occupied by each player must be separated by at least two empty regions, if possible." To me this means that only the first building placed by each player must have this separation. If you place your second and third buildings away from your first one, and then I place my first one next to your third one (on an edge), this would be legal according to the rules.

For further evidence, the example to the right of number 3 on the same page (the second example on page 4) shows how Madeline can place her first production building on an edge and more than "2 regions away from the region Anna chose." It doesn't say anything about staying 2 spaces away from any building Anna subsequently placed, only her first building.

As far as what this has to do with starting the game with offerings... I suppose it would make it slightly stronger? But you could still get locked out of good spaces if you take too long to build anything.
 
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ghettoimp wrote:
I am pretty sure you are wrong about the first building of each player needing to be two spaces away from any other building; the rules don't say this.

They say, on page 4, section 4: "The first regions occupied by each player must be separated by at least two empty regions, if possible." To me this means that only the first building placed by each player must have this separation. If you place your second and third buildings away from your first one, and then I place my first one next to your third one (on an edge), this would be legal according to the rules.

For further evidence, the example to the right of number 3 on the same page (the second example on page 4) shows how Madeline can place her first production building on an edge and more than "2 regions away from the region Anna chose." It doesn't say anything about staying 2 spaces away from any building Anna subsequently placed, only her first building.


The implementation of Deus on boiteajeux.net considers all opponent buildings when determining legal starting positions. Further, there is no mechanism in the game to identify your first region as different from later ones, which suggests that all buildings are considered equally.

I have never seen the corner case in which no legal positions remained. Based on the previous discussion, presumably you could play on any empty edge region in that case.
 
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Paul Cockburn
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ghettoimp wrote:
I am pretty sure you are wrong about the first building of each player needing to be two spaces away from any other building; the rules don't say this.

They say, on page 4, section 4: "The first regions occupied by each player must be separated by at least two empty regions, if possible." To me this means that only the first building placed by each player must have this separation.


As someone who normally interprets the rules very strictly it goes against the grain for me to say I disagree. I do understand your point. The rules do only talk about the "first buildings" needing to maintain separation. But I'm pretty sure the intention of that particular rule is for the first of your building to be placed on the map to have two clear spaces between it and any of your opponents buildings. I'm afraid this seems to me like an imprecisely worded rule rather than the designer intending it mean how you have interpreted it - however literally accurate your interpretation.

And I'd taken the words "if possible" to mean that if there was no edge space with the required separation then the player could place their building on an edge space with as big a separation as they could manage. (Or pay the 3vps to go on any advantageous edge space.)
 
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Adam Simoneaux
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ghettoimp wrote:

They say, on page 4, section 4: "The first regions occupied by each player must be separated by at least two empty regions, if possible." To me this means that only the first building placed by each player must have this separation. If you place your second and third buildings away from your first one, and then I place my first one next to your third one (on an edge), this would be legal according to the rules.


You cannot place your first building next to my third one as that breaks the rule of "The first regions occupied by each player must be separated by at least two empty regions, if possible."

This would be your first region occupied, and it is not separated by at least two empty regions.
 
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