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Subject: GFL -- Help rss

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Confused about the schedule? www.warfareproject.com giving you trouble? Unsure about football rules for a certain situation? This thread is for help with any GFL problems. For more info about the GFL, see http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/131371.
 
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I have to admit, I must have missed some rules discussion somewhere, as kickoffs just started appearing, with my not knowing who was kicking off or why. And I have yet to figure out the rules for using the secret keeper. I can respond, but can't figure out how to load a new one. Still my first defensive play was for an incomplete pass! Sweet.
 
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The home team always start with possession, and starts the thread. So they might as well roll the kickoff, even though it's really your team kicking to them.

To start up a new Secret Keeper, go to WP and click Secret Keeper on the left (http://www.warfareproject.com/servlet/com.warfareproject.web...). Enter GFL x y for the "Name," where x is the game # and y is then turn #. e.g., "GFL 119 5" is Game 119 Turn 5.

Put the names of the two participants in the long entry box on the bottom, separated by commas. e.g., windopaene, rootbeer

Click "Next," then "Create." Then click "Input secret information" to enter your play, and wait for your opponent to finish it up.

Let me know if that works for you.
 
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How are we doing punts in this league, since it's supposed to be a random draw of the defense cards by the punting team (pick one blindly from A through J). Is this being done as a die roll by the punting team(1 through 10, A=1, J=10)?
 
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desertfox2004 wrote:
How are we doing punts in this league, since it's supposed to be a random draw of the defense cards by the punting team (pick one blindly from A through J). Is this being done as a die roll by the punting team(1 through 10, A=1, J=10)?


Leo had also emailed me privately about this. After some discussion he said:

desertfox2004 wrote:
You know - I just realized/remembered that our league used the punt after safety rule for ALL punts. It just didn't seem right for the receiving/defending team to have such control over the outcome of a punt - we felt the randomized version after safeties was a better approach for all punts.


So for this round of the GFL, at least, we'll use the standard ruling. I know at least two punts have already taken place. I was on the defensive end of one, and I found the choice quite interesting. It didn't see like I had an undue amount of control over the result -- any good punt defenses were wide open to a run offense.

The defense doesn't know for sure whether or not the offense will actually punt, remember. Maybe in your face-to-face games the punt was announced, Leo?

So we'll stick with the original rule for now. If it turns out that it doesn't work well, we can discuss it later.

For punts after safeties, the method Leo mentioned should be used. Roll a d10 (using WP), A=1, J=10.
 
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rootbeer wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
How are we doing punts in this league, since it's supposed to be a random draw of the defense cards by the punting team (pick one blindly from A through J). Is this being done as a die roll by the punting team(1 through 10, A=1, J=10)?


Leo had also emailed me privately about this. After some discussion he said:

desertfox2004 wrote:
You know - I just realized/remembered that our league used the punt after safety rule for ALL punts. It just didn't seem right for the receiving/defending team to have such control over the outcome of a punt - we felt the randomized version after safeties was a better approach for all punts.


So for this round of the GFL, at least, we'll use the standard ruling. I know at least two punts have already taken place. I was on the defensive end of one, and I found the choice quite interesting. It didn't see like I had an undue amount of control over the result -- any good punt defenses were wide open to a run offense.

The defense doesn't know for sure whether or not the offense will actually punt, remember. Maybe in your face-to-face games the punt was announced, Leo?

So we'll stick with the original rule for now. If it turns out that it doesn't work well, we can discuss it later.

For punts after safeties, the method Leo mentioned should be used. Roll a d10 (using WP), A=1, J=10.


I'm good with that! Thanks for the ruling, commish!!!
 
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rootbeer wrote:
The defense doesn't know for sure whether or not the offense will actually punt, remember. Maybe in your face-to-face games the punt was announced, Leo?

I'd like to say that in our group even the FG attempts are not announced until the defense has taken her card... there is always room for a fake FG during a game.

If GFL likes the idea, the point after touchdown attempt should be declared as a Secret Keeper action. If the offense just wants to try a FG, the O/Q will write down "FG try"; if he goes for 2 points, his play will take place.

What do you think?
 
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Leo Zappa
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THE PUNTING RULES:

NOTE! These rules are not the current GFL rules! These rules are per AH Football Strategy 6th Edition, dated 1982! The current GFL rules are per AH Football Strategy 1972 edition. The following rules should be considered as an option for the next GFL season!!!

Per the standard rules ("8." under "Routine Play from Scrimmage"), on 4th down, the offensive/kicking (O/K) team, has several options:

a. Use the "Punt on any Down" chart
b. Use the "Punt 4th Down Only" chart
c. Run a play

If the O/K team is planning on doing "b.", Punt on 4th Down Only, they have to announce that before the defensive/receiving (D/R) team selects a defense. The O/K team can still then run an offensive play (i.e. do a fake punt), but the yardage they gain from such a play is halved (unless the D/R team plays defenses A or B). If the O/K team is planning to use the "Punt on any Down" chart, they needn't announce prior to the D/R team's defense selection.

In summary, the O/K team posts a message in the game thread telling the D/R team if they are or are not going to use the "Punt 4th Down Only" chart. The D/R team will then select its defense via secret keeper. The O/K team will then do one of the following:
a. If the O/K team said they were going to use the "Punt on 4th Down Only" chart, their secret keeper will be either "Punt on 4th Down Only" or an offensive play selection.
b. If the O/K team said it was not going to use the "Punt on 4th Down Only" chart, its secret keeper will be either "Punt on Any Down" or an offensive play.

I believe this is correct, but please review and comment. Thanks!

Regards,
Leo
 
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fermmoylle wrote:
rootbeer wrote:
The defense doesn't know for sure whether or not the offense will actually punt, remember. Maybe in your face-to-face games the punt was announced, Leo?

I'd like to say that in our group even the FG attempts are not announced until the defense has taken her card... there is always room for a fake FG during a game.

If GFL likes the idea, the point after touchdown attempt should be declared as a Secret Keeper action. If the offense just wants to try a FG, the O/Q will write down "FG try"; if he goes for 2 points, his play will take place.

What do you think?


I like this and would be agreeable to implementing it as you have outlined.

Regards,
Coach Zappa, Omaha Bombers
 
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desertfox2004 wrote:
THE PUNTING RULES:

Per the standard rules ("8." under "Routine Play from Scrimmage"), on 4th down, the offensive/kicking (O/K) team, has several options:

a. Use the "Punt on any Down" chart
b. Use the "Punt 4th Down Only" chart
c. Run a play

If the O/K team is planning on doing "b.", Punt on 4th Down Only, they have to announce that before the defensive/receiving (D/R) team selects a defense. The O/K team can still then run an offensive play (i.e. do a fake punt), but the yardage they gain from such a play is halved (unless the D/R team plays defenses A or B). If the O/K team is planning to use the "Punt on any Down" chart, they needn't announce prior to the D/R team's defense selection.

In summary, the O/K team posts a message in the game thread telling the D/R team if they are or are not going to use the "Punt 4th Down Only" chart. The D/R team will then select its defense via secret keeper. The O/K team will then do one of the following:
a. If the O/K team said they were going to use the "Punt on 4th Down Only" chart, their secret keeper will be either "Punt on 4th Down Only" or an offensive play selection.
b. If the O/K team said it was not going to use the "Punt on 4th Down Only" chart, its secret keeper will be either "Punt on Any Down" or an offensive play.

I believe this is correct, but please review and comment. Thanks!

Regards,
Leo


All of this stuff is NOT in the "official" ruleset we are using. According to the league comissh, the rules were are using are those found in the link here on the geek, and there is no mention of any of this. Now I realized when I was defending my first punt that something strange was going on, (in a different game), but that play stood. I do not think that we can allow this type of stuff. I'm assuming Leo has anewer set of rules that changed stuff, but these are NOT the rules we are using according to rootbeer...
 
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Windopaene wrote:
All of this stuff is NOT in the "official" ruleset we are using. According to the league comissh, the rules were are using are those found in the link here on the geek, and there is no mention of any of this. Now I realized when I was defending my first punt that something strange was going on, (in a different game), but that play stood. I do not think that we can allow this type of stuff. I'm assuming Leo has anewer set of rules that changed stuff, but these are NOT the rules we are using according to rootbeer...

Right on the mark. The rules Leo posted are great but they are not the rules we are using at the moment. Besides, more than a game had already a punt so changing the rules on-the-fly is not the most correct choice.
By the way, I have an old C64 rom (AH's Football Strategy) and even on that rom (which I assume it uses all the official rules) there's no mention to this change.

But I'll wait for the "official GFL answer" on this matter. OMB @ SAD will freeze while this is solved.

((On a future season I agree in using Leo's modified version)).
 
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Sorry I'm a little behind here. Though I'm subscribed, I'm not receiving post notifications for this thread.

OK, chronologically:

Marcelo talked about fake field goals and uncertain one-/two-point conversions. Since field goals are not influenced at all by the opposing player, I don't see that it matters if the defense selects a play before the FG attempt.

Scenario 1 -- Genuine FG Attempt: Offense wants to try for a field goal, but doesn't announce this. Defense selects a play. Now offense announces FG attempt, rolls die.

Skip the first two steps and the outcome is no different.

Scenario 2 -- Fake FG Attempt: Offense wants defense to think he's going for an FG. Defense selects a play. Offense selects his play. Play is resolved.

How did the possibility of going for a field goal affect the defense's decision? I don't think it did.

In both cases, I don't see the benefit of this method for our league. With an extra rule or two, this area could be made more realistic, but we're trying to keep things as simple and streamlined as possible.

Now, on the one-point/two-point conversions, I again don't think we need to change anything. If it's the defense's turn to start up the Secret Keeper, he will select a play in case the offense wants to try for 2. But if the offense is up and he's just going for one, he should just roll the die. No sense delaying the game by a whole day when that defensive play isn't going to be used anyway.

I'm not saying it's bad idea, Marcelo -- these elements would probably add an extra bit of fun in face-to-face play, but for what we're doing here I don't think they apply.

---

Leo's punting rules:

Yep, those are from the 1982 rules. And we're using the 1972 rules (at least for this season). Here's the file: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/fileinfo.php?fileid=17605

Granted, the 1972 rules are not as verbosely complete (punting is not covered in great detail), but they're not as chrome-laden either. That's what we're using for now.

(Leo, to avoid confusion it might be a good idea to go back and edit that post, adding a note at the beginning to the effect that those are from a non-GFL set of rules.)

---

Now, I've got a question about punting. (More of an R&D sort of thing, but while we're here...) Looking at the results for "Punt - 4th Down Only" and "Punt - Any Down", the latter is superior against all defenses but B. So why would anyone ever select "Punt - 4th Down Only"?

I know it's not a strict lawyerly intrepretation, but it seems to me that the plays should be called (or used as) "Punt - 4th Down" and "Punt 1st/2nd/3rd Down." It would be presumptuous of me to say that was the "designer's intent," but that's what it feels like to me. A non-4th down punt has an extra bit of suprise, and will probably get a better result. The 4th down punt is a little more predictable, and thus gets handled better. Does this make sense to anyone else?

The 1982 rules kind of address this by adding the concept of Punt Formation, but it almost seems backwards. They say, "a player cannot call 'Punt 4th Down Only' unless he advises the D/Q... that he is in punt formation," as if the "Punt 4th Down Only" were some special privilege. Perhaps the charts were amended for the 1982 edition, but there's definitely no privelege there on the GFL charts.

So what about renaming/repurposing the punts to "Punt - 4th Down" and "Punt 1st/2nd/3rd Down"? Keep in mind that we want things to be as streamlined as possible. While the 1982 rules might have increased the "realism," every extra bit of input required adds a day or more of time to a PBEM game.

---

Brad, where's the weird punt you were talking about? What was strange there?

Oh, and just so everyone's comfortable here, we're not going to be making any mid-season rule changes unless we have unanimous approval of them. Clarifications are good, discussing potential improvements is great, but we aren't going to have any jarring changes during the season.
 
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rootbeer wrote:
Now, on the one-point/two-point conversions, I again don't think we need to change anything. If it's the defense's turn to start up the Secret Keeper, he will select a play in case the offense wants to try for 2. But if the offense is up and he's just going for one, he should just roll the die. No sense delaying the game by a whole day when that defensive play isn't going to be used anyway.

So, if I understand correctly, if the offense wants to go for 2 he must announce this, right?
rootbeer wrote:
Now, I've got a question about punting. (More of an R&D sort of thing, but while we're here...) Looking at the results for "Punt - 4th Down Only" and "Punt - Any Down", the latter is superior against all defenses but B. So why would anyone ever select "Punt - 4th Down Only"?

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Some "Punt Any Down" results are so long that will eventually result in a touchback. Besides, on the C64 rom I've mentioned earlier, there are times the CPU uses "Punt Any Down" and other times she uses "Punt 4th Down" (and other times she just tries to grab a few more yards on the 4th down anyway).
 
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fermmoylle wrote:
rootbeer wrote:
Now, on the one-point/two-point conversions, I again don't think we need to change anything. If it's the defense's turn to start up the Secret Keeper, he will select a play in case the offense wants to try for 2. But if the offense is up and he's just going for one, he should just roll the die. No sense delaying the game by a whole day when that defensive play isn't going to be used anyway.

So, if I understand correctly, if the offense wants to go for 2 he must announce this, right?


Well, sort of. If the offense creates the Secret Keeper, then that is in effect announcing that he's going for 2. If it's the defense's turn to create the Secret Keeper, he does so (planning to defend against a 2-point attempt), but if the offense wants to kick, that Secret Keeper is null and he just rolls the die.

Is that clear?

fermmoylle wrote:
rootbeer wrote:
Now, I've got a question about punting. (More of an R&D sort of thing, but while we're here...) Looking at the results for "Punt - 4th Down Only" and "Punt - Any Down", the latter is superior against all defenses but B. So why would anyone ever select "Punt - 4th Down Only"?

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Some "Punt Any Down" results are so long that will eventually result in a touchback. Besides, on the C64 rom I've mentioned earlier, there are times the CPU uses "Punt Any Down" and other times she uses "Punt 4th Down" (and other times she just tries to grab a few more yards on the 4th down anyway).


I guess longer isn't always better. KCC landed a punt on my 1-yard line earlier this week. I'm in a rough spot over there now.

I'd be interested to hear more thoughts on this topic, though.
 
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What was wierd was the fact that Marcello used an "any down" punt on fourth down. From my memory, that wasn't the way the game worked. Of course it was long ago that I played the game FTF, so I just let it go.

I thought that when you punted on 4th down, you used the fourth down only column, so I'm totally with your proposed change.
 
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Windopaene wrote:
What was wierd was the fact that Marcello used an "any down" punt on fourth down. From my memory, that wasn't the way the game worked. Of course it was long ago that I played the game FTF, so I just let it go.

I thought that when you punted on 4th down, you used the fourth down only column, so I'm totally with your proposed change.


I would think you should not be able to use "Punt on Any Down" on fourth down because it assumes the defensive team is not expecting a punt and is not in receiving formation (no kick returners back deep to receive the punt, so any kick is less likely to be fair caught or returned). That's why the 1982 rules make more sense - the defense/receiving team can "see" that the offensive team is in punt formation, and send a receiver back deep to handle the punt. I'm not advocating we change to the 1982 rule in this league season, but just trying to explain the problem with the 1972 (and current GFL) rule.
 
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desertfox2004 wrote:
I would think you should not be able to use "Punt on Any Down" on forth down because it assumes the defensive team is not expecting a punt and is not in receiving formation (no kick returners back deep to receive the punt, so any kick is less likely to be fair caught or returned). That's why the 1982 rules make more sense - the defense/receiving team can "see" that the offensive team is in punt formation, and send a receiver back deep to handle the punt. I'm not advocating we change to the 1982 rule in this league season, but just trying to explain the problem with the 1972 (and current GFL) rule.

I see the point.
Well, we could call a vote to change the rule, but that would require total commitment of the 6 managers to be in effect (that means, until Neil comes back this vote would be adjourned). But what about the games that already had punts?
If the '82 rule is enforced, I'd recommend to put it into effect by the beginning of the 2nd quarter of all games. If there's at least one manager against it, we'll use the '82 rule only during the second season of GFL.
By the way, Leo, could you post on a separate thread all the '82 changes? I believe a single .txt file on the file section of FS would be fine.

@Jesse: So now, commish? Will you call a vote or do you think there's no need to change the rules?
 
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OK, so it sounds like at least some of us have kind of been intuitively playing this way already. There was the one punt that played out in an unexpected way, but I don't think we should go back and change any results. That punt was played according to the rules in place at that time. We should clear this up, however. So...


Proposal:

"Punt - 4th Down Only" becomes "Punt - 4th Down." It must be used in all 4th down punt situations, and may not be used on other downs.

"Punt - Any Down" becomes "Punt 1st/2nd/3rd Down." It may only be used when punting on a 1st, 2nd or 3rd down.



If we have unanimous approval, this tweak to the rules can take effect immediately. Dissenters, please explain your reasoning thoroughly.

This will take a while to resolve. In the meantime, the prevailing rules apply, exactly as written. A player may choose to use the Any Down punt on a 4th down, for now.


Votes:

SAD fermmoylle FOR
RBG rootbeer FOR
KCC Windopaene FOR
JHK gteemer FOR
OMB desertfox2004 FOR
GEG richtoosoon FOR
MMM nnf1 FOR


(I'm interpreting Leo's and Brad's earlier comments as "for" votes. If either of you want to change that, let me know.)

---

As for any major changes, such as implementing 1982 rules/charts, I don't think we should do anything so drastic during a season. We'll play this season out with fairly stable rules first.

Also, any change that added complexity would have to have significant benefits for me to be interested. I'm not trying to be dictatorial, though. In the off-season, perhaps changes can be implemented with the backing of a majority vote, rather than requiring unanimous agreement.

(Edit: Updated votes.)
 
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Quote:
As for any major changes, such as implementing 1982 rules/charts, I don't think we should do anything so drastic during a season. We'll play this season out with fairly stable rules first.

Also, any change that added complexity would have to have significant benefits for me to be interested. I'm not trying to be dictatorial, though. In the off-season, perhaps changes can be implemented with the backing of a majority vote, rather than requiring unanimous agreement.


I agree completely! Jesse, thanks for helping to clear up the punting situation and managing the league!!!

Regards,
Coach Zappa, Omaha Bombers
 
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Count me as a 'FOR'.
 
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rootbeer wrote:
If we have unanimous approval, this tweak to the rules can take effect immediately. Dissenters, please explain your reasoning thoroughly.

Some questions before I cast my vote:

1. What if I go for a regular play on the 4th down? The yardage gain will be halved unless defense chooses plays A or B (as per '82 rules)?

2. If the only punt that can be used on the 4th down is the "Punt - 4th down" isn't the defense able to select just the result she wants? Shouldn't we change any punts on the 4th down to a random defense (A-J, 1-10) in order to prevent this?
 
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fermmoylle wrote:
Some questions before I cast my vote:

1. What if I go for a regular play on the 4th down? The yardage gain will be halved unless defense chooses plays A or B (as per '82 rules)?


Nope. No '82 rules. (We're only using the '72 rules here on BGG!) A regular play on 4th down plays out like it normally would.

fermmoylle wrote:
2. If the only punt that can be used on the 4th down is the "Punt - 4th down" isn't the defense able to select just the result she wants? Shouldn't we change any punts on the 4th down to a random defense (A-J, 1-10) in order to prevent this?


You don't announce your punt, remember. The punt is entered as your secret offensive play call, and not revealed until the defense has entered their play as well. So the defense isn't sure if you're going to punt or not.

Obviously, his best punt result would be off defense J: Punt 50, Runback 20, FUMBLE(!). But choosing J also leaves him open to a Long Gain on offense 16, +22 on offense 7, etc. Because of this uncertainty, defending on a 4th and 2 situation becomes very interesting. And as the offense, 4th down isn't an "automatic punt" situation. Sometimes it'll work to go for it.

Make sense?
 
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rootbeer wrote:
Make sense?

Clear as crystal! Count me as a "for".
 
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I've heard from everyone but Neil (MMM) now, and all votes are "for." Neil's away for about another week, so it'll be a while before this in finalized.

In the meantime, since everyone so far seems to agree with the ruling, I think we should play as if the new rule were in effect already. It'd seem unsportsmanly to call the "Any Down" punt on a 4th down now, wouldn't it?
 
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What is the penalty for illegal play called?

One of my opponents messed up his addition, putting the ball on the 20 instead of the 19, then called a high numbered play. When I resolved it, I saw his error and mentioned it. What is the yardage penalty? And would it apply in this situation?
 
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