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Subject: Ignore [something] rss

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Q: If a monster instructs me to ignore a hero, can I use this hero's Dungeon abilities before (or after) the fight?

Let's look at the rules. Bold text emphasis is mine.

Quote:
Rulebook, page 24. Ignore [something]: The [something] cannot contribute any benefit to the combat directly or indirectly, including Attack Value, traits, abilities, effects, Light, or the benefit of equipped weapons.


So it would seem that Dungeon abilities, being abilities, should be ignored ... but they should be ignored in the combat. What is combat?

Quote:
Rulebook, page 36. Turn Reference, Dungeon.
1. Reveal your hand.
2. Use Dungeon abilities, equip weapons, and use Trophy effects.
3. Select a monster to fight. Combat begins at this time.
4. Resolve Battle effects.
...


Seems like combat is something that happens after you use Dungeon abilities. Therefore, it seems like you can use them at step 2, but why are they mentioned in the previous quote is unclear. Are there any abilities that you can use in combat? And if all abilities are used outside combat, what are those abilities that cannot be used against monsters that ignore a hero?

Lastly, there are two types of ignore effects: a trait (Darkness) and a Battle effect (Haunt). Is this difference irrelevant to our question, and is only important if you have a way to ignore monsters' Battle effects (which you cannot if it's a trait)?
 
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Will M. Baker
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Th334 wrote:
Q: If a monster instructs me to ignore a hero, can I use this hero's Dungeon abilities before (or after) the fight?


'Ignore' places no restrictions on using abilities, only on the effects of those abilities. So even if Intelligent is being ignored, Intelligent could still React to a destroyed card; it just wouldn't do any good, because the effect of that React would also be ignored.

The 'indirect' language makes it clear that Glamercast cannot buff other heroes with its trait, even though this attack isn't being applied directly to the monster.

I think of this as the monster knocking a hero out. Anything the hero had to be conscious for (fighting, providing light, wielding a weapon, or in the case of Glamercast standing there and buffing the heroes) is suddenly lost. But anything the hero already did during the Dungeon phase that isn't tied specifically to that hero is retained. So if the hero uses a Dungeon ability to add attack to itself, the monster will ignore that extra attack because the monster is ignoring the hero; if the hero uses a Dungeon ability to add attack to the party, the monster will not ignore the extra attack, because the monster is ignoring only the hero, not the party. Clan is a good example hero; if he buffs other equipped heroes during the Dungeon phase, it doesn't matter if Clan gets ignored, because the other heroes have already been honed as a fighting force.

Th334 wrote:
Are there any abilities that you can use in combat? And if all abilities are used outside combat, what are those abilities that cannot be used against monsters that ignore a hero?


Only Reacts. At present, I see this as trying to make the rules anticipate any cards that might come down the pipe.

Th334 wrote:
Lastly, there are two types of ignore effects: a trait (Darkness) and a Battle effect (Haunt). Is this difference irrelevant to our question, and is only important if you have a way to ignore monsters' Battle effects (which you cannot if it's a trait)?


Yes, cards like Veilminder, Shadow Cat, Thorn Caltrops, and Icon of Inversion would allow me to circumvent the Battle effect on cards like Haunt and Widowmaker, but not on Darkness or the Dragon•Humanoids. Likewise, the much more powerful trait prevents me from using Dungeon abilities that affect the monster (e.g., using a ranger to change the monster's rank).
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Hi Will. Thanks a lot for you help with Thunderstone Rules.

I think we have a little misunderstanding here though.

1) You didn't say yes or no, and I couldn't quite figure it out myself from your reply

2) You contradict yourself first by saying that Glamercast cannot buff other heroes with his trait if ignored, and then proceed to saying that he can, because the monster is ignoring the hero and not the party. I think that "direct or indirect" emphasis from the rules means that he cannot.

3) You didn't seem to understand my main point. My main point is that the rulebook says the word combat in the ignore section. And combat keyword happened to be in the rulebook too, and it refers to a step where you apply Battle effects and compare your attack with monster's health. So only the effects relevant to combat should be ignored, in my opinion. So Blufire can still get XP and level up heroes when ignored, because this contributes nothing to the combat. Well, sort of, the new leveled up hero could contribute to the combat, so maybe he cannot level up, but XP is fine. You see what I'm saying?
 
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darquil wrote:
I think of this as the monster knocking a hero out. Anything the hero had to be conscious for (fighting, providing light, wielding a weapon, or in the case of Glamercast standing there and buffing the heroes) is suddenly lost. But anything the hero already did during the Dungeon phase that isn't tied specifically to that hero is retained. So if the hero uses a Dungeon ability to add attack to itself, the monster will ignore that extra attack because the monster is ignoring the hero; if the hero uses a Dungeon ability to add attack to the party, the monster will not ignore the extra attack, because the monster is ignoring only the hero, not the party. Clan is a good example hero; if he buffs other equipped heroes during the Dungeon phase, it doesn't matter if Clan gets ignored, because the other heroes have already been honed as a fighting force.


I like this rule, although it contradicts official rules, which specify that indirect effects shouldn't apply either. But it's more thematic and easier to remember, so what the hell, official rules can be a mess anyway

So if we imagine the ignored heroes being knocked out, Battle: Ignore would knock them out in the battle, while preserving their previous effects, but ignore trait would knock them out the moment they enter the dungeon, right?
 
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Th334 wrote:
2) You contradict yourself first by saying that Glamercast cannot buff other heroes with his trait if ignored, and then proceed to saying that he can, because the monster is ignoring the hero and not the party. I think that "direct or indirect" emphasis from the rules means that he cannot.


Glamercast's trait is never statically applied the way a Dungeon ability is, so it is treated differently from a Dungeon ability. When a hero uses a Dungeon ability to buff the party or another hero, that buff remains even if the hero who did the buffing is ignored/discarded/destroyed. Glamercast doesn't enjoy this luxury, though, because his contribution is a trait. So the moment he is ignored, his buff to the other heroes gets turned off.

Th334 wrote:
3) You didn't seem to understand my main point. My main point is that the rulebook says the word combat in the ignore section. And combat keyword happened to be in the rulebook too, and it refers to a step where you apply Battle effects and compare your attack with monster's health. So only the effects relevant to combat should be ignored, in my opinion. So Blufire can still get XP and level up heroes when ignored, because this contributes nothing to the combat. Well, sort of, the new leveled up hero could contribute to the combat, so maybe he cannot level up, but XP is fine. You see what I'm saying?


The rulebook includes the word 'combat' to help make it clear that you absolutely can use any abilities you want during the Dungeon step, because this happens prior to combat; and that when the 'ignore' kicks in, it only ignores what that hero is currently contributing (not what they already and statically contributed via using Dungeon abilities). So yes, Bluefire (and any number of other heroes) can use an ability to draw cards, buff other heroes, buff the party, etc., and none of this will get ignored. All that gets ignored is whatever the hero is contributing at the moment the 'ignore' kicks in (either when combat begins if it's via a trait, or when Battle effects are resolved if it's via a Battle effect).

Hope this helps clarify your subsequent post as well. I don't see this as a contradiction; just another tricky nuance of the timing of abilities and effects.
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darquil wrote:
Th334 wrote:
2) You contradict yourself first by saying that Glamercast cannot buff other heroes with his trait if ignored, and then proceed to saying that he can, because the monster is ignoring the hero and not the party. I think that "direct or indirect" emphasis from the rules means that he cannot.


Glamercast's trait is never statically applied the way a Dungeon ability is, so it is treated differently from a Dungeon ability. When a hero uses a Dungeon ability to buff the party or another hero, that buff remains even if the hero who did the buffing is ignored/discarded/destroyed. Glamercast doesn't enjoy this luxury, though, because his contribution is a trait. So the moment he is ignored, his buff to the other heroes gets turned off.

Th334 wrote:
3) You didn't seem to understand my main point. My main point is that the rulebook says the word combat in the ignore section. And combat keyword happened to be in the rulebook too, and it refers to a step where you apply Battle effects and compare your attack with monster's health. So only the effects relevant to combat should be ignored, in my opinion. So Blufire can still get XP and level up heroes when ignored, because this contributes nothing to the combat. Well, sort of, the new leveled up hero could contribute to the combat, so maybe he cannot level up, but XP is fine. You see what I'm saying?


The rulebook includes the word 'combat' to help make it clear that you absolutely can use any abilities you want during the Dungeon step, because this happens prior to combat; and that when the 'ignore' kicks in, it only ignores what that hero is currently contributing (not what they already and statically contributed via using Dungeon abilities). So yes, Bluefire (and any number of other heroes) can use an ability to draw cards, buff other heroes, buff the party, etc., and none of this will get ignored. All that gets ignored is whatever the hero is contributing at the moment the 'ignore' kicks in (either when combat begins if it's via a trait, or when Battle effects are resolved if it's via a Battle effect).

Hope this helps clarify your subsequent post as well. I don't see this as a contradiction; just another tricky nuance of the timing of abilities and effects.

I think I'm getting it now... so are the rules sort of like discarding/destroying rules and lingering effects? It reminded me of your Fireball example, when the spell has already been launched no matter what happened to the scroll after that.

Then, my only remaining point of confusion is trait vs battle. I thought traits are always active, but now I think maybe they are only active after you chose a monster to fight (or use your ability on?), right? So unless I target a monster, his traits are irrelevant at this stage.
 
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Th334 wrote:
Then, my only remaining point of confusion is trait vs battle. I thought traits are always active, but now I think maybe they are only active after you chose a monster to fight (or use your ability on?), right? So unless I target a monster, his traits are irrelevant at this stage.


That's right. A monster's traits might always be on, but since I haven't yet selected that monster to fight, its traits don't yet apply to me. Global effects are the truer "always on, no matter where you are, or at which step" effects.
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Hey Will, I just re-read this thread, and I think I understood you wrong.

So you're saying that Dungeon effects are still being ignored by a monster that ignores a hero with this Dungeon ability UNLESS this effect is attached to the party or another card?

Can we have a few examples please?

(1) Dungeon: draw 1 card. This will not be ignored by a monster, right?

(2) Dungeon: destroy a disease. Add 1 magic attack. But this will be ignored, correct? Because it uses "add" language, meaning it's attached to this hero.
 
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So let's consider two specific monsters:

Darkness wrote:
Ignore unequipped heroes.


Haunt wrote:
Battle: Ignore 1 hero.


Example 1: My hand contains a monster, a Longspear, and a Divine L2. Divine uses his Dungeon ability to draw 1 card (a Gohlen L1). He then uses his other ability to "Add Physical Attack +1" for the monster in my hand. I equip the Longspear to the Gohlen, and uses Gohlen's Dungeon ability to "Add Physical Attack +2 if a monster is present". So Divine is Physical Attack +3, and Gohlen is Physical Attack +5.

Darkness would ignore Divine (because he is unequipped); this includes ignoring the "Add Physical Attack +1", which, per the new rules, is added to Divine itself (not to the party). Darkness does not get to ignore the equipped Gohlen (even though Divine drew the Gohlen).

Haunt lets me pick who to ignore. I choose for Haunt to ignore Divine (because he is contributing less Attack). Again, Gohlen is not ignored, even though Divine drew him.


Example 2: My hand contains a Regular, a Longspear, and a Clan L1. The Regular equips the Longspear, then uses his Dungeon ability to draw a card (another Regular). Clan uses his dungeon ability to "Add Physical Attack +1 to each other equipped hero". So Clan is Physical Attack +2, the equipped Regular is Physical Attack +3, and the unequipped Regular is Physical Attack +1.

Darkness would ignore the unequipped Clan and the unequipped Regular. The equipped Regular still gets his Physical Attack +1 bonus from Clan, even though Clan is being ignored, because that bonus was already applied before selecting Darkness to fight.

Haunt lets me pick who to ignore. If I choose to have Haunt ignore Clan, the equipped Regular retains his bonus from the Clan; if I choose to ignore the equipped Regular, the unequipped Regular still counts (even though he was drawn by the now-ignored Regular).


Example 3: My hand contains a Regular, a Longspear, and a Glamercast L2. The Regular equips the Longspear, then uses his Dungeon ability to draw a card (another Regular). At this moment, Glamercast is giving "each other hero Magic Attack +1" via his trait, so each of the two Regulars is being buffed.

The moment I select Darkness to fight, his trait causes me to ignore the unequipped Glamercast and the unequipped Regular. The moment I ignore Glamercast, his trait stops contributing to the other heroes. So my equipped Regular drops from Physical Attack +2/Magic Attack +1 to just Physical Attack +2.

Similarly, when I resolve Haunt's Battle effect, if I choose to ignore Glamercast, I lose the Magic Attack +1 buff on each of the Regulars. If I choose to ignore one of the Regulars, I lose the Magic Attack +1 buff on the ignored Regular.


Example 4: My hand contains a monster, Fireball, Blademage L3, and Outlands L3. I use Fireball's Dungeon ability of "Magic Attack +3" (this is added to the party, not to the Fireball spell itself). Outlands uses his Dungeon ability to "Add Physical Attack +2 for each monster present". So the only question is whether Blademage uses her Dungeon ability to turn Fireball into a weapon.
4a) Assume she doesn't.
4b) Assume she does, and equips it to herself for Magic Attack +9.
4c) Assume she does, and equips it to Outlands for Magic Attack +9.

Darkness:
4a) Ignores unequipped Blademage (and her Light) and unequipped Outlands. The only thing I get to count is Fireball's Magic Attack +3 (and Light).
4b) Ignores unequipped Outlands. I still count Fireball's Magic Attack +3, and Blademage's Magic Attack +4 (trait) and equipped Fireball's Magic Attack +9 (and Light, now contributing as the trait of a weapon, rather than the trait of a spell).
4c) Ignores unequipped Blademage (and her Light). I still count Fireball's Magic Attack +3, and Outlands's Physical Attack +5 (trait), additional Physical Attack +2 (from Dungeon ability), and equipped Fireball's Magic Attack +9 (and Light, now contributing as the trial of a weapon, rather than the trait of a spell).

Haunt:
4a) If I ignore Blademage (and her Light), I still count Fireball (and Light) and Outlands. If I ignore Outlands, I still count Fireball (and Light) and Blademage (and her Light).
4b) and 4c) are similar to 4a) except that if I ignore the hero equipped with the Fireball, I also ignore the Fireball's Light, since it is now contributing as a weapon, not as a spell (open to interpretation, given that the Fireball is also still a spell; but I'd play that the Light gets ignored). In 4b) the Fireball remains equipped to the Blademage even if she is being ignored; in 4c) the Fireball remains equipped to the Outlands even if the Blademage is being ignored.


And finally:
War Incarnate wrote:
Trophy: Ignore 1 hero with the highest Strength.


As a Trophy effect, things can be really confusing. If I use the effect last in my Dungeon phase, its effect will be indistinguishable from facing Haunt and having to immediately ignore a hero. But what if I use it earlier in my Dungeon phase for some boneheaded reason? If I use it to ignore a hero who hasn't yet used a Dungeon ability, can I still use that Dungeon ability? By a strict reading of the Ignore rule you cited above, I'd say yes, because I am not yet in combat, and so there cannot yet be any restriction to 'contributing to combat'.
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Thanks heaps! I think the ignored hero being knocked out in battle is still a very good analogy. I even think they should have called it "knock out 1 hero" instead of ignore

darquil wrote:
I also ignore the Fireball's Light, since it is now contributing as a weapon, not as a spell (open to interpretation, given that the Fireball is also still a spell; but I'd play that the Light gets ignored).


I would interpret it the other way. But it depends on how you imagine Blademage's ability.

1) If she takes control over the motion of the Fireball she just cast and makes it orbit around her (or somebody else's) hand like a weapon, then you're right, if she gets knocked out, the spell will break and the Fireball weapon disappear, together with it's light. However, this doesn't explain where the 3 Magic Attack comes from (from casting the Fireball in the first place).

2) But if she uses the now used Fireball scroll to create a magical weapon, which is not a Fireball, but just a weapon (like on the artwork), then the original Fireball persists, because it's been launched and now is flying into the monster, giving 3 Magic Attack and 1 Light, and the magical weapon created by Blademage is just a 9 Magic Attack, without any Light. Then, if she's ignored, even when equipped with Fireball, the original Fireball will still give 1 Light together with 3 Magic Attack (because it's a globe of fire).
 
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Th334 wrote:
1) If she takes control over the motion of the Fireball she just cast and makes it orbit around her (or somebody else's) hand like a weapon, then you're right, if she gets knocked out, the spell will break and the Fireball weapon disappear, together with it's light. However, this doesn't explain where the 3 Magic Attack comes from (from casting the Fireball in the first place).

2) But if she uses the now used Fireball scroll to create a magical weapon, which is not a Fireball, but just a weapon (like on the artwork), then the original Fireball persists, because it's been launched and now is flying into the monster, giving 3 Magic Attack and 1 Light, and the magical weapon created by Blademage is just a 9 Magic Attack, without any Light. Then, if she's ignored, even when equipped with Fireball, the original Fireball will still give 1 Light together with 3 Magic Attack (because it's a globe of fire).


Yeah, thematically, I can't quite get the Fireball to work nicely in all scenarios.

For my reading of Fireball + Blademage + Ignore, I'd go with the fact that Fireball's Light is a trait; if I use its Dungeon ability but then the card is discarded/destroyed, I retain the Dungeon ability's Magic Attack +3, but I lose the Light. So it makes sense to me that if the card is now equipped to a hero and for most purposes is being treated as a weapon, that if the hero is ignored, the weapon (and its traits) should be ignored too. I'd expect the same if a hero equipped with a Flaming Sword were ignored.
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darquil wrote:
For my reading of Fireball + Blademage + Ignore, I'd go with the fact that Fireball's Light is a trait; if I use its Dungeon ability but then the card is discarded/destroyed, I retain the Dungeon ability's Magic Attack +3, but I lose the Light. So it makes sense to me that if the card is now equipped to a hero and for most purposes is being treated as a weapon, that if the hero is ignored, the weapon (and its traits) should be ignored too. I'd expect the same if a hero equipped with a Flaming Sword were ignored.


From a purely mechanical point of view, you're right, that's probably the most rulebook way to interpret this situation.

I guess there are no limits to imagination I'll go with your ruling and pretend that Blademage sucked out some of the magic energy from the Fireball, so it's not glowing anymore, but just a deadly invisible 3 Magic Attack force, that is still flying toward the monster. This energy, however, went into making the Fireball weapon, which now gives 9 more Magic Attack and is also glowing/burning, giving 1 Light

Probably makes sense to me alone, but you can come up with a similar explanation yourself if you really want to
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Th334 wrote:
Probably makes sense to me alone, but you can come up with a similar explanation yourself if you really want to


I'm thinking that the party leader (myself) opens up this dusty old Scroll of Fireball. I utter a mystical incantation, and out shoots this massive fireball for Magic Attack +3. It travels at the magical speed of fireball, though, so doesn't really have much time to give off much enduring light of its own. However, the Scroll of Fireball continues glowing for some time while it recharges. But then the Blademage says, "Hey, whatcha got there?" and grabs it from me and transforms it into glowing, sword-shaped Scroll of Fireball, a weapon of such mythical and devastating awesomeness that none but a...level 1 Haunt?...can knock her out.
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darquil wrote:
Th334 wrote:
Probably makes sense to me alone, but you can come up with a similar explanation yourself if you really want to


I'm thinking that the party leader (myself) opens up this dusty old Scroll of Fireball. I utter a mystical incantation, and out shoots this massive fireball for Magic Attack +3. It travels at the magical speed of fireball, though, so doesn't really have much time to give off much enduring light of its own. However, the Scroll of Fireball continues glowing for some time while it recharges. But then the Blademage says, "Hey, whatcha got there?" and grabs it from me and transforms it into glowing, sword-shaped Scroll of Fireball, a weapon of such mythical and devastating awesomeness that none but a...level 1 Haunt?...can knock her out.


Haha, exactly my point! You explanation is definitely no worse than mine (maybe better, because you don't need heroes to cast spells). Rahdo (the reviewer) often points out that people who complain about thematic inconsistencies in games just don't want to use their imagination
 
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