Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
12 Posts

Sentinels of the Multiverse» Forums » General

Subject: Looking for fiddliest match up. rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Beau Bocephus Blasterfire
United States
Berrien Springs
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I am trying to devise a system to keep track of all the different variables and things that go on during a game of SotM. I want the system to be as robust as possible so what I am asking for is what combination of heroes/villians/environment provides the fiddliest match up possible. I am looking for the #1 recording keeping nightmare. I am armed with a ton of different types of tokens and ready to go. I have all expansions including the minis, and am only missing the promos, although I can probably look up what they do if need be.

Poll
1. Which heroes are the fiddliest? Please pick 5. Unless a promo version is the fiddlier version, please pick the base character. Please don't pick any character more than once (Ex: Don't pick 3 different versions of the same character, just pick the fiddliest version.)
Absolute Zero
The Argent Adept
Bunker
Captain Cosmic
Chrono Ranger
Expatriette
Fanatic
Guise
Haka
K.N.Y.F.E.
Legacy
Mr. Fixer
The Naturalist
Nightmist
Omnitron-X
Parse
Ra
The Scholar
The Sentinels
Setback
Sky-Scraper
Tachyon
Tempest
Unity
The Visionary
Wraith
KNYFE Rogue Agent
Dark Watch Setback
Dark Watch Nightmist
Dark Watch Expatriette
Dark Watch Fixer
Kvothe Six-String Argent Adept
Bunker Engine of War
Absolute Zero Elemental Wrath
GI Bunker
Rook City Wraith
Prime Warden Captain Cosmic
Tempest; Freedom
Prime Warden Fanatic
Prime Warden Argent Adept
Prime Warden Tempest
The Eternal Haka
Ra: Horus of Two Horizons
Prime Warden Haka
Wraith: Price of Freedom
Golem Unity
Redeemer Fanatic
Young Legacy
Dark Visionary
Super Scientific Tachyon
Team Leader Tachyon
The Greatest Legacy
2. Which villains are the fiddliest?
Iron Legacy
The Chairman
Vengeance Five
Cosmic Omnitron
Agent of Gloom Spite
Kaargra Warfang
The Matriarch
The Dreamer
Infinitor
La Capitan
Citizen Dawn
Progeny
Omnitron
Skinwalker Gloomweaver
Grand Warlord Voss
Spite
Plague Rat
Wager Master
Akash'bhuta
Miss Information
Kismet
Mad Bomber Blade
Apostate
Baron Blade
The Ennead
Deadline
Gloomweaver
Ambuscade
3. Which villian(s) is/are the fiddliest?
Iron Legacy
The Chairman
Vengeance Five
Cosmic Omnitron
Agent of Gloom Spite
Kaargra Warfang
The Matriarch
The Dreamer
Infinitor
La Capitan
Citizen Dawn
Progeny
Omnitron
Skinwalker Gloomweaver
Grand Warlord Voss
Spite
Plague Rat
Wager Master
Akash'bhuta
Miss Information
Kismet
Mad Bomber Blade
Apostate
Baron Blade
The Ennead
Deadline
Gloomweaver
Ambuscade
4. Which environment is the fiddliest?
Rook City
Ruins of Atlantis
Omnitron IV
Enclave of the Endlings
Insula Primalis
Silver Gulch 1883
Tomb of Anubis
Pike Industrial Complex
Time Cataclysm
Freedom Tower
Wagner Mars Base
Realm of Discord
Megalopolis
Mobile Defense Platform
The Block
The Final Wasteland
Dok'Thorath
      57 answers
Poll created by bbblasterfire

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Dougan
United States
Urbana
Illinois
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think you're going to find a lot of answers that are all over the place, depending on interactions between decks. However, I'll give you my thoughts here rather than figuring out an extra couple heroes to vote for:

- Absolute Zero is fiddly from a strictly math standpoint. In particular, damage bonuses apply to him "coming and going" when the Isothermic Transducer is in play. (e.g., he uses his base power to deal himself 1 fire damage when a +1 boost is on the table, say from Legacy. He takes 2 fire damage, then deals 2 cold damage to another target, which is boosted again.)

- The Argent Adept is probably the most complex hero to play when it comes to the power phase. I love playing him, but still don't have him figured out as well as I'd like.

- Nightmist's process of self-damage is hard for me to wrap my brain around, despite how much I love (and how well I play) Absolute Zero.

I find the Ennead to have a lot to keep track of, along with La Cap and any arrangement of the Vengeful Five. The same holds true of Kaargra Warfang the two games I've played against her (one in person & running one here online.)

Speaking of which, joining a PBF game is a good way to help yourself start to learn heroes.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moose Detective
United States
Brooklyn
New York
flag msg tools
Than Sense
badge
Is it a moose that became a detective ? Or a detective who searches for moose?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Not sure why there's two villain votes and the one that's pluralized doesn't see to take multiple votes.

Heroes are definitely Absolute Zero, Argent Adept, and Setback. I didn't consider promo versions because I don't think I've played them enough (or some of them at all). There's a few choices for 4 and 5, but I'm positive those are the top 3. The Sentinels are another good choice seeing as there's 4 of them. Unity, Captain Cosmic and a few others can get a lot of cards out but that's not always the case and most of them are straightforward? Scholar and Visionary can be more annoying with less cards.

The Vengeance Five is definitely the most fiddly villain - They are taking 5 turns per round instead of 1. There really can't be any argument.

If you're looking for a solo deck villain. The Ennead is fiddly because you'll be checking tons of cards and taking multiple turns. La Capitan has a ton of minions that keep coming back. The Matriarch's crows are jut beyond annoying if the heroes don't have damage resistance to cover them.

Any environment deck with a lot of minions is going to be the answer from the official deck. If you get the Cauldron fan-expansion, that will change.




 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Beau Bocephus Blasterfire
United States
Berrien Springs
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
stevelabny wrote:
Not sure why there's two villain votes and the one that's pluralized doesn't see to take multiple votes.


Sorry, about that. When I made the poll there seemed to be an error that didn't eliminate one of the questions; hence, the duplicate question exists.

I'm kind of happy as it does, as I figure people can vote on more than one and then figure out which one they think is the most fiddly.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Will Pell
United States
Minneapolis
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Kaargra is far and away the hardest villain to track; technically there's one title card (The Mindbreaker) which, to track strictly, would require something like 20 color-coded bowls full of 20 or so matching tokens each, to be able to track when every target has damaged every other target so that you know when you hit H on one of them (and you can't even stop tracking after Mindbreaker is assigned, nor refrain before it shows up, because the tracking is retroactive anytime it comes available, and it could potentially cycle through the deck in a round). You probably don't need to be quite that careful; more than any other card in the game, this one is a giant failure on the playtesters' part and deserves to just be told "fuck you, we're not bothering to get this right". But that is unquestionably the single hardest card to track, and besides that, Kaargra also has a lot of other, more conventional juggling to do. While I'd probably never go through with the 400-token plan, I would like to come up with some sort of leaderboard (the low-budget solution involves Post-It notes, while a fancier version would be magnetic) that can gain or lose notations as cards enter and leave play, so every effect could be tracked in the proper place to ensure you don't miss anything, and you could just read down the board in order to stay on top of what all the Gladiators and Titles are doing.

While no-one else even comes close to Kaargra, I'm surprised that nobody but me thought to mention Skinwalker Gloomweaver. Look over his Rotting God side again and think about what a typical turn could look like, particularly if it involves a Vast Following. Twice every turn he loses HP, blasts his own minions, harvests HP for their deaths, triggers bonus card plays for all Cultists killed, and if he's advanced he plays one more card thereafter. Throw in the Relics and Voodoo Pins, it's definitely enough to make your head spin.

Hero-wise, there aren't really any bad ones aside from Argent and Zero. Nightmist and Scholar are just sort of basically complex, not fiddly per se, save perhaps for a couple effects. I don't really agree with Setback at all, he's hard to parse since his cards all have multiple clauses, but once you get used to it, the tracking's pretty easy, he just has the one Unlucky pool, and beyond that the cards do what they say, it's pretty straightforward mostly. Oh shit, I should have mentioned Fanatic and Tempest, both of them have a card that causes major tracking issues (Divine Sacrifice and Elemental Subwave Inducer). Please edit those responses in to replace Scholar and Misty. Likewise, Environments have no real runner-up to the Realm of Freaking Discord; Sudden Shopping Trip in the Time Cataclysm has the same problems but it's just one card, and always vanishes in a round, so it's not too bad. (Though Fixed Point requires tracking negative HP, so I guess TimeCat is the defacto second place hre.)

Just to make sure you're not reinventing the wheel, look at Spiff's site. He's got a lot of accessories he decided were necessary - tracking boards, spinners and so forth - so you might save yourself some effort by just using some of his stuff.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Beau Bocephus Blasterfire
United States
Berrien Springs
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
willpell wrote:

Just to make sure you're not reinventing the wheel, look at Spiff's site. He's got a lot of accessories he decided were necessary - tracking boards, spinners and so forth - so you might save yourself some effort by just using some of his stuff.


Thank you for the well thought out and detailed response. I always look towards what is available before going about making anything on my own; as it is much easier to just implement something that has already been made. I just don't feel I have found what I"m looking for yet.

Some of the things that I hate tracking the most are timed things, at the start of, at the end of, the first time, when something is played, when something is destroyed, etc. I find when these things get mixed in with other effects it can cause a lot of headache. Chairman for example, when using the chairman it is vital to remember that underbosses spawn a thug more or less every turn at the end, unless there are none left. With multiple cards spawning multiple cards which often times have a start effect, end effect and another effect; unintentionally overlooking something becomes quite possible; especially, if you are trying to minimize the damage your heroes take.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dennison Milenkaya
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I believe the two most "fiddly" heroes are Captain Crunch and Guise.

TL:WR version: I'm just rambling a bit. You can ignore me and be blissful.

For all the math involved with Absolute Zero, it really is only a matter of tracking his stuff during his turn. The only card that he has which affects another turn is Sub-Zero Atmosphere, which is rarely played. Beyond that, he only reacts to taking damage on other turns, but since this is what Absolute Zero is, it is almost impossible to forget that he does stuff when taking fire or cold damage.

Nightmist has cards that reference a value from another of her cards, but they're rather consistent in how they do it. None of her effects take place outside her turn, with the exception of her damage-redirecting Amulet, which is very hard to miss.

Captain Crunch spreads his cards around the table like a two-year old eating paschetti & meatballs with an attitude problem while being taunted by Sheryl Crow music at 155 decibels and a bear trap grating into both his feet. It doesn't help that they all look relatively similar from across the table and the names of the cards rarely evoke their effect. They all have 4 HP, making them indistinguishable from one another that way. But the worse thing about them is that they all have different triggers for their effects. Some act when they take damage, some when the target they're next to takes damage, some at the start of the attached target's turn, some during Captain Crunch's turn, some when other stuff happens. This lack of consistency makes it really hard to memorize how all these Constructs behave and one needs to constantly review the cards to be sure they're handled correctly. And the player controlling the Cap'n can't even keep it straight for everyone because his cards aren't in front of him, so he tends to put the burden on the other players who are trying to track their own stuff. Plus, he screws with lowest hero target HP and adds many more targets to check for HP totals and far more chipping when put into play and during "damage all" effects. His cards often end up scooped into another hero's deck at the end of the game. His cards trigger on any turn and can lead to chain reactions of plenty other things occurring.

Guise seems to intentionally want to be irritating with all his "and do this during the environment turn" and "pretend like that guy's card says something else and works differently, but not really." He adds stupid fluff text in the middle of the game effect text box and tries to make stuff happen that really shouldn't. The worse part is all of this is done for the sake of a bad joke that really isn't worth the fuss.

Other heroes that do stuff out-of-turn limit their involvement to when they are affected by something. Tachyon's Synaptic Interuption is clearly visible in front of her at all times and doesn't need to trigger, so even if you miss it when taking damage, you don't spoil the flow of events. About the only thing she needs to remember is who dealt damage to her since her last turn for Supersonic Response. Pretty simple, really.

Fanatic has the End Of Days, which you don't forget about playing by the time the environment turn begins. Most likely, she's given the team advanced warning: "I'm going to destroy everything, so don't bother playing Ongoing and Equipment cards; they won't last." No-one misses that one. Embolden sits in front of another player, but they can handle it from there and she can commit the effect to memory. She can stick a "Start of Turn" banner in front of her to remind her of Divine Focus, if she wants, but again, it is optional to resolve, so no big deal if she misses it here or there. She also doesn't play many cards at a time and rarely has many in play at once, so pretty easy to track what's happening.

All heroes have stuff along these lines. It's par for the course. Only Captain Crunch and Guise are really irksome in their handling.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Beau Bocephus Blasterfire
United States
Berrien Springs
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
FlatOnHisFace wrote:
I believe the two most "fiddly" heroes are Captain Crunch and Guise.

...

All heroes have stuff along these lines. It's par for the course. Only Captain Crunch and Guise are really irksome in their handling.


Thanks for the response, I like how you supported your argument and tend to agree with the points that you made. I generally find that things that work out of turn and target something another character are the harder things to track. Summing up bonuses and such doesn't bother me so much if it is contained. It is tough when you have something here and something there and such.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dylan Thurston
United States
Bloomington
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm surprised there aren't more votes for Enclave of the Endlings as the fiddly environment. All those different effects to keep track of.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Himes
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There's also Wager Master with the way he constantly changes the most basic rules of the games. He's probably not worth considering though because if you have any sense at all, you just won't play him. At least not more than once.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dylan Thurston
United States
Bloomington
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
catwhowalksbyhimself wrote:
There's also Wager Master with the way he constantly changes the most basic rules of the games. He's probably not worth considering though because if you have any sense at all, you just won't play him. At least not more than once.
To be more precise, if you're not specifically looking for that kind of experience, you won't play him...

I'd similarly not include Guise, as being clearly geared towards players looking for a particular kind of experience.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Walsh
Ireland
Lucan
Co Dublin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
dthurston wrote:
I'm surprised there aren't more votes for Enclave of the Endlings as the fiddly environment. All those different effects to keep track of.

Which ones are those? Most of the cards in the Enclave are pretty straightforward, and I wouldn't compare any of them to Surprise Shopping Trip or Negative/Positive Energy Field in terms of fiddliness or, for that matter, The Pillars of Hercules.

I picked Prime Wardens Argent Adept, Prime Wardens Captain Cosmic, Guise, The Scholar and Setback as my team, although I am beginning to think I should have picked Parse instead of Setback, because Parse does have that one shot that lets a Hero use a power, and she has bottom-deck stacking abilities. While I think Setback is a bit more fiddly than Parse, Parse probably adds more overall fiddliness to the team.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.