Recommend
5 
 Thumb up
 Hide
13 Posts

Khronos» Forums » Reviews

Subject: Not as Interesting as it Should Be (Recanted) rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Dave Lartigue
United States
Springfield
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
IMPORTANT NOTE: It has been pointed out that on our play we misread a rule which affects my review. Though I still have some (more minor) problems with the game, I no longer feel this is an accurate assesment for the game, and apologize. Instead of trying to flush it down the memory hole, I'll leave it here as a monumanet of my own dumbness.

======

This game has a great idea...three boards in three different eras, and events on one board ripple through time to the others. Unfortunately the game attached to this great idea is just not any fun and has cumbersome rules that completely sabotage the premise.

I won't go into the rules here...they're available in other posts for you to look at, so I'll simply leave my impression after one play. For the specific observations I'm making, one play is sufficient, since my main problem is with the rules as written.

There's no reason to give me all of time to play in and then constrain my actions so narrowly. The many rules for placement mean that what should be a very open ended game with major effects bcomes fiddly and annoying. Too often you're looking at three boards in three time periods and very little of any consequence to do, because some rule or other is preventing the actual construction of buildings. You can't build over part of a building. You can't join two domains with a non-blue building. You can't build a building that will cause a problem later on in time. What the heck is the point of time travel if I can't cause trouble later on in time? Imagine a game in which you can't build a temple in Ancient Rome because 2000 years later there's going to be a church next door to it and that violates some kind of temporal zoning law. As a result, a game that should be dramatic and exciting becomes pretty snoozetacular.

In addition, you get four cards per turn and that's it. You can swap in cards, but this costs 2 VP to do so and only allows you to draw replacement cards at random. That's just obnoxious. Why not let me change one card to another for 2 VP, or something?

It's as though the designers were terrified that someone at some point might make a decision in the game, so they put the whole thing in a very narrow confines. Khronos should be a lot more fun and interesting than it is.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Cote
United States
Maine
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Not as Interesting as it Should Be
Legomancer wrote:
You can't build a building that will cause a problem later on in time.


I'm no expert myself, but I think you may have this wrong. There are cases when ripples won't happen, but I don't think you are ever prevented from building "now" except for the local rules.

Regardless, thanks for the feedback.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
VIALLA Ludovic
France
Versailles
flag msg tools
designer
Re: Not as Interesting as it Should Be
what a strange critical!
Only one play with errors of rules but already a 4/10... Houaouuuu

Legomancer wrote:
some rules that completely sabotage the premise.

Houaouuu


Legomancer wrote:
I'm making, one play is sufficient

Houaouuuu


Legomancer wrote:
You can't build over part of a building

In the same board it's true and fortunately to avoid chaos. But you can destroy a size 1 building.


Legomancer wrote:
You can't join two domains with a non-blue building

True. Very specific rule who avoids the problems of rule of hierarchy.


Legomancer wrote:
You can't build a building that will cause a problem later on in time

It's false !


Legomancer wrote:
Imagine a game in which you can't build a temple in Ancient Rome because 2000 years later there's going to be a church next door to it and that violates some kind of temporal zoning law.

Irony ?
yes imagine.... But you are not speaking about Khronos.
is that contributes to explain the 4/10 ?


Legomancer wrote:
In addition, you get four cards per turn and that's it. You can swap in cards, but this costs 2 VP to do so and only allows you to draw replacement cards at random. That's just obnoxious. Why not let me change one card to another for 2 VP, or something?

to choose its cards requires an additional reflexion which we did not wish to put in the basic rule. But variant exist.


Legomancer wrote:
It's as though the designers were terrified that someone at some point mike make a decision in the game, so they put the whole thing in a very narrow confines.

Sorry I did not understand this last sentence...

BdC
Ludovic VIALLA



1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maarten D. de Jong
Netherlands
Zaandam
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
Re: Not as Interesting as it Should Be
Boule de cristal wrote:
Legomancer wrote:
You can't build a building that will cause a problem later on in time

It's false !

I think that what Legomancer was referring to was the rule where rippling a military or religious building from the Age of Might to the Age of Faith won't work if it causes an illegal junction between two domains in the latter. (I cannot remember what its shadow does in the Age of Reason, though.) I must say that I don't particularly like this rule either.

But at the same time, I find Legomancer's review a bit shortsighted to say the least. Instead of attempting a few more times to work his way around the constraints and see if they are genuinely clamping down on player creativity or not, he writes the game off without a second glance. I had a lousy first time experience (see the article I wrote) too, but could attribute this to not yet properly understanding the game's structure. My jury is still out, therefore.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gavin Wynford-Jones
France
Prévessin-Möens
Just across the border from Geneva, Switzerland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Not as Interesting as it Should Be
Legomancer wrote:
There's no reason to give me all of time to play in and then constrain my actions so narrowly. The many rules for placement mean that what should be a very open ended game with major effects bcomes fiddly and annoying. Too often you're looking at three boards in three time periods and very little of any consequence to do, because some rule or other is preventing the actual construction of buildings. You can't build over part of a building. You can't join two domains with a non-blue building. You can't build a building that will cause a problem later on in time.

In addition, you get four cards per turn and that's it. You can swap in cards, but this costs 2 VP to do so and only allows you to draw replacement cards at random. That's just obnoxious. Why not let me change one card to another for 2 VP, or something?


Alll games contain constraints: they're called rules! It's a bit mean to slap a game down after just one (potentially erroneous) play just because it restricts what you're allowed to do.

I don't understand the issue of four cards being a problem. With only three card types, you're guaranteed to have a pair. That's one upgrade plus two small constructions at a minimum. You don't have to put all your constructions on the Age of Might, for example, so with a bit of time travel you're almost always going to be able to do something useful with your cards. Maybe reinforcing the strength of an existing domain. Maybe putting down the groundwork for a future turn. Maybe upgrading a ruin or claiming a stake in the Age of Reason...

It's true that you have to watch what you're doing when you play a tile, on three separate boards to boot, but that's part of the experience and is what makes Khronos into the interesting game it is.

Gavin
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Lartigue
United States
Springfield
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Not as Interesting as it Should Be
You are all right to smack me down, and I've learned a lesson about posting in haste. We WERE in fact playing wrong, for some reason believing that if a building would cause a problem when rippling, it would prevent the building. Instead, I see it only prevents the rippling; the building is still acceptable.

I apologize to the creators and have removed my poor rating pending more re-plays.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gavin Wynford-Jones
France
Prévessin-Möens
Just across the border from Geneva, Switzerland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Legomancer wrote:
We WERE in fact playing wrong, for some reason believing that if a building would cause a problem when rippling, it would prevent the building. Instead, I see it only prevents the rippling; the building is still acceptable.


You should let them know if the wording of the English rules caused this confusion: a second printing is planned and they want to iron out any trouble spots. (We read the rules back and forth in the scoring round... and couldn't find how to score: the section starts very near the bottom of the page and is easily missed!)

Hopefully your second game will go better!

Gavin
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Cote
United States
Maine
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I haven't played yet myself, but the one thing that struck me as odd was not being able to build at all in the Age of Reason. It would seem to allow for more interesting options if you could. Of course, the interactions of the mechanics might have necessitated certain restrictions. I applaud the playtesters for their determination with this game, since there were so many intricacies.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gavin Wynford-Jones
France
Prévessin-Möens
Just across the border from Geneva, Switzerland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ekted wrote:
I haven't played yet myself, but the one thing that struck me as odd was not being able to build at all in the Age of Reason. It would seem to allow for more interesting options if you could. Of course, the interactions of the mechanics might have necessitated certain restrictions. I applaud the playtesters for their determination with this game, since there were so many intricacies.


It helped players in my group to think of Olde Englande: in the Age of Might, you're building castles to keep the pesky Welsh and French at bay; in the Age of Faith, you're building the cathedrals from the late Middle Ages; in the Age of Reason, you've renovated some of the ruins and are charging tourists to come and look them over!

Only the Victorians built "new" ruins.

Gavin
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
VIALLA Ludovic
France
Versailles
flag msg tools
designer
Legomancer wrote:
You are all right to smack me down, and I've learned a lesson about posting in haste. We WERE in fact playing wrong, for some reason believing that if a building would cause a problem when rippling, it would prevent the building. Instead, I see it only prevents the rippling; the building is still acceptable.

I apologize to the creators and have removed my poor rating pending more re-plays.


I thank you for this remark. I do not criticize your rating, you could not like the play or to find it without interest but I do not wish that it be because of a bad reading of the rule.

I am impassioned and my only wish is to propose the best possible play.

BdC
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
VIALLA Ludovic
France
Versailles
flag msg tools
designer
ekted wrote:
I haven't played yet myself, but the one thing that struck me as odd was not being able to build at all in the Age of Reason. It would seem to allow for more interesting options if you could. Of course, the interactions of the mechanics might have necessitated certain restrictions. I applaud the playtesters for their determination with this game, since there were so many intricacies.


And you know, we retained ourselves because there is a fourth plate (antiquity)... blush

BdC
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Cheevers
United Kingdom
Liverpool
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
generalpf wrote:
Leaving your review alone would be rude,
deleting your review would be acceptable,
editing your review to admit your mistake is just plain classy.

thumbsup


Seconded.

It's good to see that some people still have it in them.

thumbsup thumbsup

James
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.