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Fief: France 1429» Forums » Rules

Subject: Clarification of "Permission" to Pass Through rss

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Kenneth Stein
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Just to make sure we have this right if a lord and his army wish to pass through an occupied village.

First, they place themselves on the road leading to the village.

Second, they ask permission to pass through.

Third, the occupier says either a) go ahead or b) No!

Fourth, the requestor either
a) returns to his starting place, counting that as 1 move or
b) ends his move in the village with the occupier or
c) declares a Cavalcade battle with a Lord and only his knights

Fifth, if successful, the Lord and his knights must continue on.

But.... where do the men at arms of the Lord's army end up if the Cavalcade is a success?
a) back at the origin village or
b) in the formerly occupied, now defeated village

And... if the Cavalcading Lord stops the battle after a round(s), he stays in the contested village, but where do the men at arms go?

 
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Andrei Koenig
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In your scenario, if you have any Men-At-Arms in your army, Cavalcade is NOT an available option to you.

YOu will have to either stay at the village with opponent, and then fight (or not), or return back to where you came from.
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Kenneth Stein
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If you are correct, that would explain the issue completely and obviate any questions about where the men at arms end up.

There is a clear distinction about what kind of army can even ask permission, in other words. Only an ORIGINAL army composed of knights may cavalcade, not one that decides to break down and only use his knights to force the issue.

Is it just me, or couldn't that have been stated more clearly in the rules?
This is not the first thread that has raised questions about this and posited theories about the wording.

This is a nice game, but I have to give it low marks for all the rules questions that have arisen, and all the "well, in the French Rules it says.." replies I've read.
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Allen Michaels
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Can the owner of the village reneg? Meaning, if they say "sure, I'll let you pass"...so the player brings MaA and Knights...and then the owner says, "on second thought, no just kidding"?

OR...visa versa? "Hey man, you'll have to Cavalcade if you want to pass."
"OK, I'm doing it! Leaving 4 MaA at home".
"Just kidding, you can pass right though!"

Other:
I guess on 4b, he can choose to fight it out there with his total force...but he won't be able to move after that. Riiight?

 
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Vance Strickland
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al_fredo wrote:
Can the owner of the village reneg? Meaning, if they say "sure, I'll let you pass"...so the player brings MaA and Knights...and then the owner says, "on second thought, no just kidding"?

OR...visa versa? "Hey man, you'll have to Cavalcade if you want to pass."
"OK, I'm doing it! Leaving 4 MaA at home".
"Just kidding, you can pass right though!"


Nothing in the rules prevents this.... as far as I can see. Major dick points to the village owner though.

Quote:

Other:
I guess on 4b, he can choose to fight it out there with his total force...but he won't be able to move after that. Riiight?



Correct.
 
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Kenneth Stein
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See, this is what I mean about the rules. It seems like the permission thing is really 2 steps.
First you're on the road and ask permission to pass. The sensible thing is that is it; I get to go past.
But noooo.... from somewhere comes a second step, where you move a 1/2 inch into the village and then the occupier gets to change his mind. That is not clearly spelled out! It is counterintuitive.

An analogy would be if during combat you could commit to an attack, wait to see if a bad card is played on you, then get to say "Just kidding, not attacking, thanks for revealing that card." I mean does THAT make any sense? Of course not. Yet that is exactly what has been implied/ruled in the permission question.
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Vance Strickland
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I think there's your problem. No where does it say you move up to the village and then ask permission to pass.

Ask before you even begin moving...

Of course you analogy doesn't make sense. I don't think the permission thing makes sense either which is where my "Major dick points" comment came from.

It's just a game. Play nice with other folks with in the scope of the game. If you grant passage then you grant passage. If you declare an attack, you will attack.

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Andrei Koenig
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al_fredo wrote:
Can the owner of the village reneg? Meaning, if they say "sure, I'll let you pass"...so the player brings MaA and Knights...and then the owner says, "on second thought, no just kidding"?

OR...visa versa? "Hey man, you'll have to Cavalcade if you want to pass."
"OK, I'm doing it! Leaving 4 MaA at home".
"Just kidding, you can pass right though!"

Other:
I guess on 4b, he can choose to fight it out there with his total force...but he won't be able to move after that. Riiight?



Kind of... but not really. It is not an issue in the game.

You only ask for permission officially ONCE. When you get to the actual village. Any chatter before that is just that. Negotiations and talking.

It is not worse or better than when you say that you are going to move to a village and with no intent to fight, and then declare battle during Battle Phase.

Or when you say "yes, let's marry our families next turn" and then when it comes around, you say, "nope, changed my mind. Don't want to marry you".

It's just part of the game.
 
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Andrei Koenig
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Barthheart wrote:
I think there's your problem. No where does it say you move up to the village and then ask permission to pass.






rule book wrote:
If a Lord wishes to pass through a Village occupied by an
opponent, the Lord must get the opponent’s permission (even
if the opponent is an ally). Place the moving Lord and Troops
on the road leading into the Village.
If the opponent gives permission, the Lord may continue
movement
in any direction, if the Lord has a Move available.





Emphasis mine. This tells me that the process is: You move --> you ask permission -- > permission granted ----> you may continue movement in any direction if you have a move available.

If permission denied then:
rule book wrote:
If the opponent denies the Lord permission, the Lord may
return to where he moved from (if the Lord has a Move
available), or the Lord can remain in the Village with the
opposing Troops.


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Vance Strickland
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koenigcitizen wrote:
Barthheart wrote:
I think there's your problem. No where does it say you move up to the village and then ask permission to pass.






rule book wrote:
If a Lord wishes to pass through a Village occupied by an
opponent, the Lord must get the opponent’s permission (even
if the opponent is an ally). Place the moving Lord and Troops
on the road leading into the Village.
If the opponent gives permission, the Lord may continue
movement
in any direction, if the Lord has a Move available.





Emphasis mine. This tells me that the process is: You move --> you ask permission -- > permission granted ----> you may continue movement in any direction if you have a move available.

If permission denied then:
rule book wrote:
If the opponent denies the Lord permission, the Lord may
return to where he moved from (if the Lord has a Move
available), or the Lord can remain in the Village with the
opposing Troops.




Yep, yer right. Right After I posted I went looking for the rulebook. (Must remember to do that BEFORE posting...)

Anyway, you said it best above that it's part of the game.
But I'm not sure you could renege on an attack if you've stated that you are starting one.....
 
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Andrei Koenig
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Barthheart wrote:

But I'm not sure you could renege on an attack if you've stated that you are starting one.....


Not sure what you mean exactly, but if you declare a battle during a battle phase, you have to fight, yes.

If in the movement phase, you say "if you move here, I will declare a battle", nothing stops during actual battle phase to say "no battle declared from my side".
 
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Kenneth Stein
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My Attack analogy was just made up, folks. I never meant to imply one could actually do that. It was an "as if" example of how inappropriate the denial of permission process, as described here, is. Just an analogy, NOT a claim.

But seriously, no comments on the common sense, or lack thereof, of this "rule"?

So yes, it's my game now and if I want to leave out the "denial seconds after the approval", of passage , I will. Either you let me through or you don't. If you don't, I back up or crowd in. End of story.

And I would be VERY careful about using the claim "nothing in the rules prevents this". Wow, does that open a can of worms in a game! Nothing in the rules prevents me from removing some of your troops, or cards, when you're not looking, does it? Games are governed and bounded by what the rules specifically say you can do, not by what you can imagine, or what is in another, similar game.

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Vance Strickland
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koenigcitizen wrote:
Barthheart wrote:

But I'm not sure you could renege on an attack if you've stated that you are starting one.....


Not sure what you mean exactly, but if you declare a battle during a battle phase, you have to fight, yes.

If in the movement phase, you say "if you move here, I will declare a battle", nothing stops during actual battle phase to say "no battle declared from my side".


The first one. It was part of Kenneth's analogy in a post above.

Attack phase:
ME: "I attack here with my troops next to your village."
Kenneth: "I play this card that is really bad for you."
Me: " Oh, then never mind just kidding. But thanks for showing me your bad card."

He likened that situation to the one of reneging on passage.


EDIT: Ha! ninja'd by Kenneth.
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Andrei Koenig
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I don't know how you guys play games, but if you say during the Battle Phase: "I attack!". You attack. Battle starts. There are no take backs.
How can you say "Ha! Kidding! I don't attack!"?

This is so weird, I feel like I am not understanding it correctly. This has happened 0 times in any of the games I played.
 
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Kenneth Stein
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There must be a delay in these postings, so that my clarifications arrive late.

The battle example I cited was just made up. It was an exaggeration to prove a point. Please read carefully. It was an "as if...".
 
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Raph Moimoi
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When you are asking for passing through a village or moving through a path where enemy troops are standing on, you need to be at this village. Anything you negociated before has no value, the negocation begins at the moment your at the village near enemy troops.

If the enemy doesn't give you the right to pass, you can cavalcade if you only lead Knights with your lord(s)
--> you say you're cavalcading
--> your opponent can say he eventually let you pass OR he may prefer to fight you
--> if he let you pass, then you can chosse to pass without a battle OR you can run through any enemy present here and trigger a fight against him (even if he wasn't refusing for you to pass)

Cavalcading is black mail : your opponent may fear heavy defeat and he prefer let you pass.

This is the french rule ninja
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Kenneth Stein
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Now Ralph's post makes the most sense, and is the easiest. If denied permission, one option is to gather together your knight's and cavalcade through. Man at arms left behind. Both a plus and a minus.
 
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kenstein wrote:
Now Ralph's post makes the most sense, and is the easiest. If denied permission, one option is to gather together your knight's and cavalcade through. Man at arms left behind. Both a plus and a minus.


Except you get permission after you move into the village. And if you brought men-at-arms, you cannot cavalcade, even if you wanted to leave them behind.

The rule is (according to the English rules dev) that to cavalcade, the army can only include lords and knights during the entire duration of its movement, from start to end, not just each individual step of it.
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Vance Strickland
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But you can't cavalcade if there are MaA in your army.

If you arrive at the village with only Knights and you are refused passage then you can cavalcade.

If you have brought MaA with you, you must stop, or go back, or attack. But you cannot leave your MaA there and cavalcade with just the Knights.

EDIT: Grrr... ninja'd again.
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Vance Strickland
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koenigcitizen wrote:
I don't know how you guys play games, but if you say during the Battle Phase: "I attack!". You attack. Battle starts. There are no take backs.
How can you say "Ha! Kidding! I don't attack!"?

This is so weird, I feel like I am not understanding it correctly. This has happened 0 times in any of the games I played.


Just ignore all reference to this. It was just an exaggeration and not really any situation that is likely to happen.
 
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Andrei Koenig
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Barthheart wrote:
koenigcitizen wrote:
I don't know how you guys play games, but if you say during the Battle Phase: "I attack!". You attack. Battle starts. There are no take backs.
How can you say "Ha! Kidding! I don't attack!"?

This is so weird, I feel like I am not understanding it correctly. This has happened 0 times in any of the games I played.


Just ignore all reference to this. It was just an exaggeration and not really any situation that is likely to happen.


Gotcha. I knew I was missing something. It was just too strange.

We interpret the rules exactly like Raph said.
 
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Raph Moimoi
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Ravendas wrote:
kenstein wrote:
Now Ralph's post makes the most sense, and is the easiest. If denied permission, one option is to gather together your knight's and cavalcade through. Man at arms left behind. Both a plus and a minus.


Except you get permission after you move into the village. And if you brought men-at-arms, you cannot cavalcade, even if you wanted to leave them behind.

The rule is (according to the English rules dev) that to cavalcade, the army can only include lords and knights during the entire duration of its movement, from start to end, not just each individual step of it.


I should have added this point ^^
You cannot mix Men-at-arms when cavalcading... but if you come to a village where you have men-at-arms, you can cavalcade if you arrive with only lords and knights, the men-at-amrs already here don't mix with the party, you just pass through enemy as you cannot stop here if you cavalcade.

If your cavalcade is stopped (agreement, or assassination, or 3 rounds without loss), it cannot move anymore for this turn. This barely happens as one or another side will be defeated most of the time.
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