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Descent: The Well of Darkness» Forums » General

Subject: FAQ up already! rss

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Evan Champie
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For those of you who don't check their homepage religously, FFG has already posted a FAQ here: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/PDF/descentfaq.pdf

Most notabley, Furr got leashed! He can't attack unless his master has LOS to him AND is within 5 squares. Also, he has a melee attack for those of us who were wondering about the white die.

Named monsters can no longer be penned in by runelocked doors. And thankfully, there are now official rules for big monsters and Knockback. I always though it was weird that Demons got flung as far as Kobolds, didn't you?

Lets help em out guys. What did they miss?
 
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Mark Wilson
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Well if FFG ever publish a set of rules that was clear and accurate, they wouldn't need to post a FAQ a week after releases. Good grief.
 
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Matthew M
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The rules are clear and accurate. My sense is they didn't consider some of the ramifications of those clear and accurate rules, and thus needed to change them only a week after release.

-MMM
 
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Tom Johnson
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Did you notice though that this FAQ states:

Errata and FAQs for The Well Of Darkness Expansion are on page 5 of this document.

The FAQ only has 4 pages...
 
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Andrew DiGregorio
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teejay wrote:
Did you notice though that this FAQ states:

Errata and FAQs for The Well Of Darkness Expansion are on page 5 of this document.

The FAQ only has 4 pages...


so, the Errata is going to need errata?
 
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Felix Rodriguez
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The Errata clearly states its a BETA so... Don't be too hard on it.

No official fix for 2-player balance which is unplayable without house rules, but otherwise the FAQ is very welcome!
 
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Evan Champie
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Actually, I just thought of one they didn't get. Larurel of Bloodwood's hero ability reads:

"After rolling a Ranged attack, Laurel may spend 1 fatigue to convert any extra range she rolled into damage on a one-for-one basis."

Is it supposed to read "1 fatigue = convert ALL range extra into extra damage," or is it "1 fatigue = convert ONE extra range into 1 extra damage."

It's a nit-pick, but I play with rules lawyers :/
 
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Matthew M
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Scuzball wrote:
"1 fatigue = convert ALL range extra into extra damage,"


Pretty sure it's this one.

-MMM
 
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Chad Walton
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I think the key part is "one-for-one basis"...
 
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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Octavian wrote:
The rules are clear and accurate. My sense is they didn't consider some of the ramifications of those clear and accurate rules, and thus needed to change them only a week after release.

-MMM


Well, fine. Throw "Comprehensive" in and you see the problem. I agree FFG makes neat games, and I know your a fan Matt, but you have to admit their propensity for lighting-fast FAQ releases is a bit on the silly side. I'm just the tinyest bit sick of it, as it can be a right pain to figure out which rule is what in something like Arkham Horror.

 
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Evan Champie
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C.H.A.D. wrote:
I think the key part is "one-for-one basis"...


Here's the nit pick that came up in our game, though.

Is the one-for-one basis applied to

a) range to damage

b) fatigue to conversion

where 'conversion' is one range to one damage. Rules lawyers :<
 
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Matthew M
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apotheos wrote:
Octavian wrote:
The rules are clear and accurate. My sense is they didn't consider some of the ramifications of those clear and accurate rules, and thus needed to change them only a week after release.

-MMM


Well, fine. Throw "Comprehensive" in and you see the problem. I agree FFG makes neat games, and I know your a fan Matt, but you have to admit their propensity for lighting-fast FAQ releases is a bit on the silly side. I'm just the tinyest bit sick of it, as it can be a right pain to figure out which rule is what in something like Arkham Horror.



Just for reference, my post wasn't meant to excuse them. It was meant to focus the criticism in the right place It's playtesting. Shock and horror, I know.

-MMM
 
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Barry Figgins
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apotheos wrote:
Octavian wrote:
The rules are clear and accurate. My sense is they didn't consider some of the ramifications of those clear and accurate rules, and thus needed to change them only a week after release.

-MMM


Well, fine. Throw "Comprehensive" in and you see the problem. I agree FFG makes neat games, and I know your a fan Matt, but you have to admit their propensity for lighting-fast FAQ releases is a bit on the silly side. I'm just the tinyest bit sick of it, as it can be a right pain to figure out which rule is what in something like Arkham Horror.



Wait...are you complaining that they post their FAQs quickly?

Remember that, even though the FAQ came out right after the expansion, the rules have been done, finalized, and sent off to the printers for at least a month now, probably more. It's not quite as amazing a turnaround as it seems.
 
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Jesse Smit
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The problem here is the fact that FFG, after so called periods of "extensive play testing", consistently produces games with flaws that the average consumer can spot by briefly flicking through the rules. No ones complaining that they managed the incredible feat of producing a pdf in under a week.
 
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Jesse Smit
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When did I say that?
In general I tend to feel their games have a lot of potential, thats what makes the half assed jobs they tend to push on us all the more frustrating. Otherwise i wouldnt bother bitching about it.
 
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Jack Wraith
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mateybob wrote:
The problem here is the fact that FFG, after so called periods of "extensive play testing", consistently produces games with flaws that the average consumer can spot by briefly flicking through the rules. No ones complaining that they managed the incredible feat of producing a pdf in under a week.


Actually, no one brought up the problem with Furr until the expansion was actually released. The rules were on FFG's website a couple months prior to release. Some things don't occur until you see them in action. Granted, playtesting should have revealed the possibility of tossing Furr inside a rune door and letting him whittle the monsters down to nothing. But, in my experience, game designers frequently play and test games for the joy of playing the game (i.e. does this work? Is it fun?), as opposed to finding out how they can win by the letter of the rules rather than the spirit. Every game company I've ever purchased from has had these problems (the Urza block for M:TG comes quickly to mind...) FFG is no exception.

Mike Z, of course, has been organizing an external playtest program for FFG for some time now. Everyone involved is hoping that it leads to cleaner releases. But, in all honesty, that doesn't concern me so much (and, IMO, it shouldn't concern other people as much as it does.) I'd rather the games simply be fun to play, rather than competitively perfect. In the past few years, FFG has been releasing some great games and I'm a firm fan, even if there are niggling little problems here and there. As always, if there's a minor problem, just house rule it. Even if it's not a genuine 'problem', go ahead and house rule it if it makes the play better for your group (we've now split the massive Market deck for Runebound into two- allies and items -and draw from both for each visit to town. It makes for nice variety.) If your group is so concerned about the competitive balance of every game you play, I think you're missing out on some of the better aspects of the experience (and I play GW games religiously, so I know of what I speak in all permutations of that statement...)
 
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Mike zebrowski
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Just to be clarify one thing:

Well of Darkness was already completed before I took over the external playtest program. It just took forever to actually get published.

Mike Z
 
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Karl
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Jackwraith wrote:

Actually, no one brought up the problem with Furr until the expansion was actually released. The rules were on FFG's website a couple months prior to release.


You are kidding, right? I didn't even menage to download the rules when they were released before someone was already posting that Furr was broken on the FFG board. Just noone official was listening/commenting/fixing it until this FAQ.
 
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Mike zebrowski
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kilrah wrote:
Just noone official was listening/commenting/fixing it until this FAQ.


To be fair, nothing needed to be fixed until the expansion was actually released.

Mike Z
 
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Karl
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Right. However at least in the case of Furr I kinda expected a revised rulebook as it was noticed so early. Not a big deal all in all of course.
 
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Felix Rodriguez
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I'm glad to hear that Well of Darkness wasn't externally tested. That gives us hope that things will be better in the future. Hopefully these external tests are using different people counts (2,3,4,5) too so future releases can be balanced.

And like someone above said. If it was a bad game, there would be less bitching.
 
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Chad Walton
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Scuzball wrote:
C.H.A.D. wrote:
I think the key part is "one-for-one basis"...


Here's the nit pick that came up in our game, though.

Is the one-for-one basis applied to

a) range to damage

b) fatigue to conversion

where 'conversion' is one range to one damage. Rules lawyers :<


The term "one-for-one" refers to what is being converted which in this case is extra range into damage. If it was meant the other way why would they say "one-for-one" instead of simply stating she may spend one fatigue to convert all extra range into damage? I guess they could possibly mean she can convert all the extra range into damage for each fatigue she spends but that is really stretching it (and that is more of how they would have stated it). Besides if that were true she could walk up and blow away any monster in the game with a store bought bow...
 
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Daniel Edwards
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The criticism and invariable rapid defence of the latest FFG release is taking on the feeling of something like a long running play. All the same players with the same well worn lines.

While those who don't like to hear criticsm of FFG are clearly satisfied, Its evident from reading the boards here that many people who have bought a FFG game have been left with a bit of a bad taste in their mouths. That reaction obviously doesn't worry them but it would me if I worked for FFG.

Does anyone even actually disagree that their weakness (to date) has been rules clarity and playtesting? The issue seems simply that some don't see it as a problem to their enjoyment of the game while others do.

IMO its a bit rich to take the "if I don't have a problem with it then you shouldnt either line". Similarly, the "well don't buy it if you don't like rules that aren't 100% right" is pretty silly as well. No game (particularly games with complex interactions like many ffg games) is perfect but who ever asked for perfection?

I love FFG games and I think a lot of the people who post critical things about individual games and the company do as well. I've posted critical things about FFG's playtesting and some balance issues in the past because I wanted them to improve. I think overwhelmingly others have done so for the same reason. What I've found personally frustrating in the past is that it seemed like these issues could be fairly easily fixed with a bit of focus. The core of the games are great.

It certainly sounds like thats a general message that FFG has received and the changes to their external playtesting seem positive. Would they have done that without their customers's feedback?

I'm certainly happy to wait and see how FFG go with their new releases given their apparent change in focus to give more attention to playtesting issues. While I doubt they will ever get to the point where they don't need errata, Im hopeful that as they refine their procedures over time more issues get resolved prior to release rather than after.
 
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Jim Patching
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I can't say I've ever had to look up a FAQ for any Fantasy Flight Game. We have added things and made amendements from FAQ but these were things just discovered from general browsing, not through specifically looking for rules clarifications
 
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