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Subject: Waros or Weuros: Which is the right word for euro-wargames? rss

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Richard Hutnik
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I am curious here. I have seen them called Waros and also Weuros. Which term do you feel would be the appropriate term for a wargame that has Euro style play mechanics behind it. As far as I can see these games range from FFG's War of the Rings to Helas. Or is Weuro the singular term for a game, while Waros is the plural form?

 
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Paul DeStefano
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The overabundance of labelling and pigeonholing doesn't change the nature of the games. In other words, it doesn't and shouldn't matter.
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Richard Hutnik
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Re: Waros or Weuros: What's the right word for euro-wargames
Geosphere wrote:
The overabundance of labelling and pigeonholing doesn't change the nature of the games. In other words, it doesn't and shouldn't matter.


The reason for asking is to be able to come up with a shorter word to describe what is meant here. And Euro-Wargame hybrids are becoming more prevalent.
 
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Geoff Bohrer
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Re: Waros or Weuros: Which is the right word for euro-wargam
One other problem that isn't being taken into account:

Wargames don't have themes.

Wargames have subjects, scales, and settings.

You can talk condescendingly about theme all you want, and certainly, a Euro could (and some do) have a military theme. But a hard core grog is still gonna sneer at it.

Understand, that's not a sneer in itself...but the military Euros aren't a step to unification of genres, they're a sub-genre of Euros.

A grog may think it's kinda cool to use a different set of mechanics. But he's not going to identify a game (generally) by its mechanics- he'll identify it by what it's about.
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Re: Waros or Weuros: Which is the right word for euro-wargam
I would use the word "game", clarified if necessary by "I will probably play it" or "I will probably not play it". The former by far outweighs the latter.
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Richard, I wouldn't worry about the 'right word' for these or any other type of game. You may be getting that impression from the other posts on this thread too

But another thing to consider is that this kind of naming tends to be very fluid and may change over time. For a LONG time on this site, you couldn't spit without hitting a discussion about whether to call Settlers of Catan and games of that ilk Euros, German games, designer games, TGOOs (there's one I haven't seen for a little while), or whatever. And even now, when most people seem to be saying Euro, most people will know what you are talking about if you call them designer games or whatever. Communication, not nomenclature, is the important thing.

Waros, Weuros, or just games, people will know what you mean. If the community at large decides over time that these labels are needed for whatever reason, they'll eventually settle on one that most people will use. But it's way too early to be worrying about whether or not you've used the 'right' term. So use whatever term you like, and enjoy your games!
 
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Richard Hutnik
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Re: Waros or Weuros: Which is the right word for euro-wargam
MrSkeletor wrote:
I agree that there is really no such things as a "Waros".

I don't agree with Jason about Twilight, to me that is clearly Ameritrash.
War of the ring is Ameritrash too, nudging towards a wargame. I see nothing Euro about it really.
Something like Vinci is a Euro, not a wargame.


How do you consider Vinci NOT a wargame? That is like saying Tempus isn't a Civ type game. Vinci is a wargame. It is abstract, and in the Rise and Fall category.
 
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Richard Hutnik
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Re: Waros or Weuros: Which is the right word for euro-wargam
Drew1365 wrote:
docreason wrote:
Which term do you feel would be the appropriate term for a wargame that has Euro style play mechanics behind it.



The word you're looking for is "game."


And on that note, I think I will lump these games with Super Mario Bros., because Super Mario Bros. is a game.
 
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Richard Hutnik
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Re: Waros or Weuros: What's the right word for euro-wargames
gbohrer wrote:
One other problem that isn't being taken into account:

Wargames don't have themes.

Wargames have subjects, scales, and settings.

You can talk condescendingly about theme all you want, and certainly, a Euro could (and some do) have a military theme. But a hard core grog is still gonna sneer at it.

Understand, that's not a sneer in itself...but the military Euros aren't a step to unification of genres, they're a sub-genre of Euros.


Ok, I was looking for a short-hand name for a military Euro, and I saw Waros and Weuros uses as that name. They are Euro games that involve actual combat and conquest, like Vinci. They have been used here. Someone actually used it in a diagram that had wargames and "Ameritrash" as two categories, and Euros as a third. Between Euro and Wargames was Waros or Weuros.

 
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Re: Waros or Weuros: Which is the right word for euro-wargam
docreason wrote:
That is like saying Tempus isn't a Civ type game.


Works for me.
 
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Geoff Bohrer
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Re: Waros or Weuros: Which is the right word for euro-wargam
docreason wrote:

Ok, I was looking for a short-hand name for a military Euro, and I saw Waros and Weuros uses as that name. They are Euro games that involve actual combat and conquest, like Vinci. They have been used here. Someone actually used it in a diagram that had wargames and "Ameritrash" as two categories, and Euros as a third. Between Euro and Wargames was Waros or Weuros.



Yeah, and I didn't much care for that continuum. But that's neither here nor there- I guess my point is that "weuros" (which I think is a perfectly OK term for conflict-themed or military-themed games which concentrate on mechanics over subject) aren't really a bridge to consims. I think the concept gap is too great.

Look at the Columbia boards for an example. When someone there asks "What do you want to see more of?" the members don't answer "Block games without step losses" or "Card-driven block games". They answer "Civil War" or "Medieval" or "WWII Tactical".

See the distinction I'm drawing?

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Joseph Cardarelli
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OK, the be the first person to actually answer the question, I will say "Waro" is a better term. Weuro just looks...to...weird.

laugh

Besides, if you can find a reference to the word Waro in the BGG database before I started saying it, then I will tip my hat to you.
 
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Darrell Hanning
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Wargames:

TI3
War of the Ring
Antike
Vinci
Bonaparte at Marengo

Conflict simulations:

Bonaparte at Marengo
(Although FFG's War of the Ring doesn't miss by much.)

Historical conflict simulation:

Bonaparte at Marengo

Whether it's "Euro" or otherwise is moot - design ideas, component styles, and game manufacturing techniques do not stay on one side or the other of the oceans. The distinction becomes increasingly irrelevant. Hybridization between traditional genres and schools of thought continues - every year you see more influence across genres, in multiple directions. I think this is a good thing.

If you want a documented and easily observable parallel, review the history of the automobile, from 1960 to present, with an eye toward the Japanese import, and what it did to influence American design and manufacturing. After 40 years of cross-pollination of ideas, there is little if anything to distinguish between cars made by Japanese-held companies and those made by American-held companies, except perhaps for durability and resale value.

Just my opinion, and not expecting much in the way of agreement.
 
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Brett Myers
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SatanicEssence wrote:
OK, the be the first person to actually answer the question, I will say "Waro" is a better term. Weuro just looks...to...weird.

laugh

Besides, if you can find a reference to the word Waro in the BGG database before I started saying it, then I will tip my hat to you.



I coined the term Waro in reference to Euro-wargame hybrids on spielfrieks in Feb.

Brett
 
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Joseph Cardarelli
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disclamer wrote:
SatanicEssence wrote:
OK, the be the first person to actually answer the question, I will say "Waro" is a better term. Weuro just looks...to...weird.

laugh

Besides, if you can find a reference to the word Waro in the BGG database before I started saying it, then I will tip my hat to you.



I coined the term Waro in reference to Euro-wargame hybrids on spielfrieks in Feb.

Brett


Of 2006?
 
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Ken B.
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DarrellKH wrote:
Wargames:

TI3
War of the Ring
Antike
Vinci
Bonaparte at Marengo

Conflict simulations:

Bonaparte at Marengo
(Although FFG's War of the Ring doesn't miss by much.)

Historical conflict simulation:

Bonaparte at Marengo




No way on Vinci. The "I attack you with +2 troops" has no bearing on any sort of realistic conflict I can think of. (I think very highly of Vinci, but no way is it a wargame, just a very clever game that uses a map as a playing board).

TI3? I might agree there, but I've seen too many wargamers scoff at the very idea...you need MORE SIM to 'join the club'. Otherwise, I agree with you--TI3 is a wargame that just so happens to handle other things rather than conflict, as is the myopic view of many regular wargames.

War of the Ring I also agree with, but it fails the complexity test for most wargamers, so it goes in the American-Plastic-Fest camp. I've seen its combat system compared unfavorably to Risk (a comparison obviously drawn by someone who has never actually played WotR.)


And Bonaparte a consim? Hmmm...since units die in nice packages of 500 and it doesn't actually sim the days events exactly, most consim fans would disagree with that, too. However, I do see it as being firmly a wargame (and a VERY good one, too).
 
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Brett Myers
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SatanicEssence wrote:
disclamer wrote:
SatanicEssence wrote:
OK, the be the first person to actually answer the question, I will say "Waro" is a better term. Weuro just looks...to...weird.

laugh

Besides, if you can find a reference to the word Waro in the BGG database before I started saying it, then I will tip my hat to you.



I coined the term Waro in reference to Euro-wargame hybrids on spielfrieks in Feb.

Brett


Of 2006?


Yep.
 
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Re: Waros or Weuros: Which is the right word for euro-wargam
Weurgames surely...

 
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David Seddon
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Grognads came up with the term "Weuro" sometime early this year. I forget when.
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Philip Thomas
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Ha, I wouldn't call Twilight Struggle Ameribleep. A game in which causing a nuclear war is a losing move is clearly uncomfortable in that genre.laugh

As for the question, I guess if they are more on the euro side of the fence they are Weuros and if they're more like a consim they are Waros. Its all a matter of perspective though- hardened Grognards doubtless call them all Eurogames, while the true Eurosnoot won't touch Euphrat & Tigris because it is a "wargame"
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Steve Bernhardt
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docreason wrote:
I am curious here. I have seen them called Waros and also Weuros. Which term do you feel would be the appropriate term for a wargame that has Euro style play mechanics behind it. As far as I can see these games range from FFG's War of the Rings to Helas. Or is Weuro the singular term for a game, while Waros is the plural form?



Ugh, I really dislike both of those terms. Weuros sounds like a creature in Runebound.

Maybe im not sophisticated but I generally think about games as wargames, eurogames or american-style games. I generally dislike most of the terms this community comes up with, for example:

Ameritrash - didnt like at first, but now find funny even though it doesn't really help me too much.

Designer game - dislike, every game has a designer. This is just a ploy to inject some pretentious language.

"Gamer's game"- ponderous, awkward. Bleh.


It's kind of a lost cause, I think. The dude who said that 99% of arguing is about definitions was right.

 
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Re: Waros or Weuros: Which is the right word for euro-wargam
Admiral Fisher wrote:
Grognads came up with the term "Weuro" sometime early this year. I forget when.
yeah, but I'm 'amending' this to become as: "teh suXXors" surprise
 
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So what happened to "Atlantic Games"?

 
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Re: Waros or Weuros: Which is the right word for euro-wargam
GROGnads wrote:
Admiral Fisher wrote:
Grognads came up with the term "Weuro" sometime early this year. I forget when.
yeah, but I'm 'amending' this to become as: "teh suXXors" surprise



How about "Wargamerros"? I had that for lunch yesterday!

 
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Geoff Bohrer
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Re: Waros or Weuros: Which is the right word for euro-wargam
bill_galloway wrote:



How about "Wargamerros"? I had that for lunch yesterday!



You know, like any good satire, there's more than a little truth to this.

Grogs (Italian food purists) will sneer and shake their heads, making retching noises.

"Pure" Eurogamers (nutritionists) gasp in horror and expect the fall of the industry at any moment (the death on the consumer). When that pointedly fails to occur, they redouble their efforts to ensure that ONLY foods they approve are available in schools.

And kids (people who actually BUY games, rather than just talking about them) will just go on loving 'em. All flavors, all labels, all pasta shapes.

VERY nice work, Bill.
 
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