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Dune: The Dice Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Ornithopter and Allies rss

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Chris Jones
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If you can share the effects of an Allies Harvester, can you do the same with an Allies Ornithopter?
 
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Heiko Günther
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Goldenturkey wrote:
If you can share the effects of an Allies Harvester, can you do the same with an Allies Ornithopter?
An Ornithopter allows all Troops that may move (active player's and possibly Ally's Troops) to treat the target Region as adjacent to the Region with the Ornithopter asset.

I am not sure what you mean by sharing "the effects of an Allies Harvester". Only the active player benefits from a Harvester. The active player has to have their own Troops present in the Region with the Harvester.
 
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Andrey Astakhov
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Heiko, there's a thread nearby where we're discussing wording in rules regarding Harvesters.

Rules don't explicitly say that you must have at least one troop in an Region with a Harvester to use it when the Region is already controlled by your Ally.
 
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Chris Jones
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Hi Heiko (again), the following are the only questions I have remaining about the rule set, mainly sparked from recent geek discussions.

(In no particular order).

1. When does the Active player determine the Spice they have available (Start of Shipping?) - this is only relevant if 2 is true.

2. If you have Troops in a region shared with an Ally and there is a Harvester - do you get the bonus? Are you sharing the Harvester with your Ally? Question 1 is now important as you'd need to generate your spice after an Alliance was formed to access the Harvesters. (But I think you say no to this).

3. What would happen if you have Troops in a Harvester region with non allied Troops (from previous alliance who did not refresh those alliances?) I assume this would be classed as the area not under anyones control so the Harvester is out of bounds.

4. Can you use an Ornithopter in a regions with an Ally (and no other non-allies), to move your Troops and the Ally's Troops to the target Region?(I think you answered yes to this already).

5. Is an Ornithopter in a region with any unaligned Troops not 'owned' by anyone so not able to be used?

6. Also if you can share a harvester by co-existing in a region with your Ally and you do control another Harvester in a different region, could you choose to destroy your Ally's harvester rather than yours on a Shai-Hulud roll?

That's about it...any help?

CHRIS

 
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wirdjos wrote:
Heiko, there's a thread nearby where we're discussing wording in rules regarding Harvesters.

Rules don't explicitly say that you must have at least one troop in an Region with a Harvester to use it when the Region is already controlled by your Ally.
Good question, I would assume you'd have to have at least 1 Troop in the Region to use a Harvester if this were true.
 
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I think the problem is with the term "owner".

The Asset is placed on the board, so it seems logical that whoever controls the Region controls the Asset.

If there is no clear controller then the Asset is in stasis.

But does an Alliance give 'dual-ownership" this access to the asset?
 
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Heiko Günther
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All these questions, or most, seem to stem from the rules being unclear as to who "controls" an Asset, as opposed to a Region; An Asset may be used by each player who has at least one Troop in the Region containing the Asset, if other rules permit such use.

So, the active player has "control" of i.e. may benefit from/destroy all Harvesters in Regions he has at least one Troop in at the start of his turn.

Ornithopters provide their benefit to all Troops of the active player and his Ally in their Region, during the active player's Move Troops step.

Fortifications provide their bonus during Sandstorms to all Troops in their Region.

Goldenturkey wrote:
1. When does the Active player determine the Spice they have available (Start of Shipping?)?
You can do that directly at the end of the first step (Roll the dice). In any case, the start of your Ship Troops step is the latest time to determine your available Spice for the current turn.

Goldenturkey wrote:
2. If you have Troops in a region shared with an Ally and there is a Harvester - do you get the bonus?
Yes.

Goldenturkey wrote:
Are you sharing the Harvester with your Ally?
No.

Goldenturkey wrote:
3. What would happen if you have Troops in a Harvester region with non allied Troops (from previous alliance who did not refresh those alliances?) I assume this would be classed as the area not under anyones control so the Harvester is out of bounds.
You get the Harvester benefit and may destroy it.

Goldenturkey wrote:
4. Can you use an Ornithopter in a regions with an Ally (and no other non-allies), to move your Troops and the Ally's Troops to the target Region?(I think you answered yes to this already).
Yes. Note, however, that you are never allowed to move your Ally's Troops. The allied player is the only one to decide if and where to move their Troops. They may use the Ornithopter as well. You and they may also use Ornithopters in Regions with non-allied player's Troops present.

Goldenturkey wrote:
5. Is an Ornithopter in a region with any unaligned Troops not 'owned' by anyone so not able to be used?
No. The active player and their Ally may use it.

Goldenturkey wrote:
6. Also if you can share a harvester by co-existing in a region with your Ally and you do control another Harvester in a different region, could you choose to destroy your Ally's harvester rather than yours on a Shai-Hulud roll?
Both Harvesters would be "yours", during your turn, you do not share them. You could freely pick which one to destroy.
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Okay - simple definitive wording

Any Harvester or Asset can be used by the active Player (or Ally) as long as they have at least 1 Troop token in the Region.

If a Region contained 4 different Troop tokens (don't ask me how) and a Harvester/Ornithopter then each Faction could use them when they become the active player.

Anyone in an area (even with others) will still get to use the Asset when they become the active player.


Wish I could thumb your response more!
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lee elektrik wrote:
All these questions, or most, seem to stem from the rules being unclear as to who "controls" an Asset...
Writing the Visual rules (as a total beginner to the game) has forced me to ask the questions that address issues that could cause much delay and confusion in learning this awesome game.

Its the role of the Visual rules (until that cease and desists arrives - anytime you're ready Heiko) to present an easily digestible set of rules for the guys who play round my table - and most of them REALLY need it simple!

 
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Mike Anastasia
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Goldenturkey wrote:
If a Region contained 4 different Troop tokens (don't ask me how) and a Harvester/Ornithopter then each Faction could use them when they become the active player.
Under the current rules, this won't happen at a time when the assets matter, but the ruling is correct. There can be 4 colors of pieces in a region at the start of battle - but after the fight there will be at most two. Both of those players will have use of the assets until their own cubes move elsewhere.

The polar sink, of course, can have 8 colors of troops at once, but it is explicitly forbidden from ever containing an asset. [page 5 para 2 of the 1.05 rules]
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Update: (as I understand)

Allies share the use of the Ornithopter if both or you have Troops in the same Region.

Harvesters are only accessible if THE ACTIVE PLAYER has Troops in the same region. A harvester in a region with only your Ally's troops does not gain you access to that Harvester.

 
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Andrey Astakhov
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There's still a timing question. What if got a permission from my ally to ship unit(s) to their region with a Harvester? Will I get 2 extra Spice this turn?

I'm asking because not all Spice is accounted at the start of this step. E.g. I can ask my Corrino ally to give me some Spice even during shipping stage (it's mentioned in rules).
 
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wirdjos wrote:
There's still a timing question. What if got a permission from my ally to ship unit(s) to their region with a Harvester? Will I get 2 extra Spice this turn?
Yep! Good question. I agree we need a line in the sand here. After conversation with Heiko, I think you should calculate the the Spice you gain each turn at the very start of the Ship Troop phase. I feel you spent the turn so far gathering Spice and preparing to invade/move. Moving into an area with a new Harvester will allow you to gather resources from it during your next turn, when you've secured it/had the time to use it.

This add a little more tactic rather than a quick move one Troop, get some free Spice.

My tuppence-worth!
 
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Heiko Günther
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wirdjos wrote:
There's still a timing question. What if got a permission from my ally to ship unit(s) to their region with a Harvester? Will I get 2 extra Spice this turn?
No:
lee elektrik wrote:
Goldenturkey wrote:
1. When does the Active player determine the Spice they have available (Start of Shipping?)?
You can do that directly at the end of the first step (Roll the dice). In any case, the start of your Ship Troops step is the latest time to determine your available Spice for the current turn.
wirdjos wrote:
I'm asking because not all Spice is accounted at the start of this step. E.g. I can ask my Corrino ally to give me some Spice even during shipping stage (it's mentioned in rules).
The Corrino special ability allows to add to your total Spice after that point of time. Harvesters are not affected by this.
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