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Innovation: Echoes of the Past» Forums » Rules

Subject: please considering modifying almanac rss

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William Miao
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please consider changing almanac to (draw a foreshadow a card of equal bonus, not one greater as it is now). I think it's crazy that a card in age 3 could end the game. It's just race for almanac, and to top it off nothing scores as fast as almanac either. Measurement and industrialization are bad enough. I speak as the top player on isotropic with ~3000 games played, and I think many of my compatriots would agree. Well, maybe not, because that is probably the most common way I am beaten! Yes I am guilty of using it to win too, but the point is it shouldn't even be an option! Foreshadowing AND scoring is already powerful enough, why should we have a game ending condition by potentially turn 6 or 7 (it's not unfeasible, tools into 3, some lucky almanac hits). It's madness...
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Andy Latto
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ksasaki wrote:
please consider changing almanac to (draw a foreshadow a card of equal bonus, not one greater as it is now). I think it's crazy that a card in age 3 could end the game. It's just race for almanac, and to top it off nothing scores as fast as almanac either. Measurement and industrialization are bad enough. I speak as the top player on isotropic with ~3000 games played, and I think many of my compatriots would agree. Well, maybe not, because that is probably the most common way I am beaten! Yes I am guilty of using it to win too, but the point is it shouldn't even be an option! Foreshadowing AND scoring is already powerful enough, why should we have a game ending condition by potentially turn 6 or 7 (it's not unfeasible, tools into 3, some lucky almanac hits). It's madness...

You're a much better and more experienced player than I am, but in my experience, Water Mill is as bad as Almanac. Do you think this should be changed too?

Both of these cards were made much more powerful when the rule for when you draw blue cards and when you draw brown cards was introduced. That rule change made a lot of things better, but dogmas that repeat when you draw bonuses became much more powerful when you could ensure that all your draws in the sequence would be blue cards, increasing the chance of chaining.
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Chris Cieslik
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We are looking at making changes to both of these I believe, in Inno Deluxe!

I should get the changes over to Doug for isotropic though.
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Kellen Feral
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angelkurisu wrote:
We are looking at making changes to both of these I believe, in Inno Deluxe!


Please tell me the card size isn't changing...
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Chris Cieslik
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US Poker size, is the plan.
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Jonathan Harrison
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Sorry, not up on my card sizes—is that the same size as current Innovation cards?

Also, what is Innovation Deluxe? Will it have new art? I sure hope not. I really like Innovation as is and would be bummed to not get the revised card for my existing sets.

Will Innovation continue to be released in its current art style? For No Place Like Home, for example?
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Jonathan Harrison
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angelkurisu wrote:
We are looking at making changes to both of these I believe, in Inno Deluxe!

I should get the changes over to Doug for isotropic though.

Are the rules changes finalized? Because I would be happy to start playing with them now with my existing set if you can reveal them. The Great Almanac Race has been somewhat of a thing with us lately, to the point that everyone goes for it every time just to see whether it’s consistently beatable.
 
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Chris Cieslik
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Rules changes are not finalized. We'll definitely put them out for testing before that happens!

Innovation deluxe is going to be similar to the Asmadi version, but with some updated icons and a bit more color. Nothing drastic!
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Chris Cieslik
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And you'll be able to get the upcoming expansions in original style, yes.
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Ben MacFarlane
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angelkurisu wrote:
We are looking at making changes to both of these I believe, in Inno Deluxe!

I should get the changes over to Doug for isotropic though.


If there are going to be rules changes to cards, will there be any way to get the updated cards for the Asmadi version?
 
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Chris Cieslik
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We can probably do something through DriveThruCards, but there's no feasible way for us to print replacement cards through the factory -- there're so many different print runs of Innovation out there that color matching/stock matching is not possible.
 
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Jonathan Harrison
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angelkurisu wrote:
We can probably do something through DriveThruCards, but there's no feasible way for us to print replacement cards through the factory -- there're so many different print runs of Innovation out there that color matching/stock matching is not possible.

Will future printings of non-deluxe Innovation have the updated cards?
 
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Chris Cieslik
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HuginnGreiling wrote:
angelkurisu wrote:
We can probably do something through DriveThruCards, but there's no feasible way for us to print replacement cards through the factory -- there're so many different print runs of Innovation out there that color matching/stock matching is not possible.

Will future printings of non-deluxe Innovation have the updated cards?


Still sorting out how that will all work. Anything we print in the future will certainly have the updated cards, yes.
 
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Simon Skov
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Sounds very good to me. We'd also identified Almanac and Water Mill as cards that were overpowered with the new draw rules. Excited to see more info on the new deluxe version.
 
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William Miao
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Great! I am glad to hear it. I think all draw cards / tuck cards (fermenting, paper, reformation, industrialization etc) should have some kind of hard cap, say 5 just to throw a number out. Drawing 20 cards with an endorsed fermenting is just insane. I don't know why but watermill has a way of stopping itself, and also the card that you are left in your hand lets your opponent quickly catch up with say a strategic archery or perfume. Almanac is scoring, staying in age 3, so you are fulfilling the score higher requirement as well, and all "cards" in the untouchable forecast, so there is really nothing you can do to stop it. Yes watermill is powerful, but not almanac crazy!
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Chris Cieslik
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Sorry we haven't gotten around to finalizing this until now.

The proposed new Alamanac text:

ECHO: Draw and foreshadow a 4.

MAIN: You may return a card from your forecast with a bonus. If you do, draw and score a card of value one higher then the returned card's bonus.
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Laura Creighton
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angelkurisu wrote:
Sorry we haven't gotten around to finalizing this until now.

The proposed new Alamanac text:

ECHO: Draw and foreshadow a 4.

MAIN: You may return a card from your forecast with a bonus. If you do, draw and score a card of value one higher then the returned card's bonus.


Hope that is not how it went to the printers, as there is a spelling error. s/higher then/higher than/

And I too just slaughtered some people with this card, so I agree that it is overpowered, as is Watermill.

We are going to change Watermill.

It now reads:
Archive one card with an Influence Bonus from your hand
Draw a card of value equal to its Bonus. If this card also has an Influence Bonus, repeat this Dogma.

We are going to play:
Archive one card with an Influence Bonus from your hand
Draw a card of value equal to its Bonus. If this card also has an Influence Bonus, archive one card with an Influence Bonus from your hand, and draw a card of value equal to its Bonus.

What are other people doing?
 
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Laura Creighton
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The other card with a Draw/If it has an influence bonus (aside from Watermill and Almanac) is Flute:

I demand you recycle a card with an influence bonus from your Hand!

Draw and reveal a 1. If it has an Influence Bonus, repeat this Dogma Effect.


We are playing this as:
Draw and reveal a 1, then add it to your hand. If it had an Influence Bonus, then repeat this Dogma.

thus you can get a maximum of 1 echoes card with this dogma. The alternative would be to reveal a stack of them and add them to your hand (which I assume is what you do with them, since it doesn't say to play/meld, score, or research/foreshadow them). That way of playing could produce a long chain of echoes cards to add to your hand.

Is this what other people are doing?
 
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Ali Cali
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lacreighton wrote:
The other card with a Draw/If it has an influence bonus (aside from Watermill and Almanac) is Flute:

I demand you recycle a card with an influence bonus from your Hand!

Draw and reveal a 1. If it has an Influence Bonus, repeat this Dogma Effect.


We are playing this as:
Draw and reveal a 1, then add it to your hand. If it had an Influence Bonus, then repeat this Dogma.

thus you can get a maximum of 1 echoes card with this dogma. The alternative would be to reveal a stack of them and add them to your hand (which I assume is what you do with them, since it doesn't say to play/meld, score, or research/foreshadow them). That way of playing could produce a long chain of echoes cards to add to your hand.

Is this what other people are doing?

Your two texts are the same. When you draw and reveal, it goes into your hand. No need for the extra text.
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David desJardins
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I agree with Ali, when you "Draw" a card it goes into your hand, that is part of "Draw".
 
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Laura Creighton
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Okay then. In my translation of the rules I will make it very clear that 'Draw' means 'Draw and put into the Hand'. Then flute will not become a source of arguments. Thank you.
 
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