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Subject: Baseball -- Pitcher vs. Batter Mechanic - No Dice? rss

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I've been thinking and researching a lot the last few years about how to model the cat & mouse game between pitcher and batter in a somewhat abstracted baseball game (not playing every pitch). Instead of using dice, I wanted both sides to be more involved in determining the outcome, again, cat & mouse style. Maybe it's the same as rock-paper-scissors though.

Here's what I was thinking. Both pitcher and batter have their own card with a strike zone grid (size not yet determined). Each side places a set number of blocks on their strike zone grid and hit chart based on their skill rating. Any matching blocks on the strikezone grid triggers a hit. So a great hitter would be able to place 2-3 blocks on his strikezone, thus effectively giving him greater coverage. A great pitcher would only have to place a single cube, thus making it more difficult to "connect" with his pitch.

Both pitcher and batter cards also have a hit chart that includes multiple boxes for single, double(2), triple(3), homerun(3). A great hitter would be allowed to place more blocks on the chart (starting from a single and on up to a homerun) thus giving him a greater chance of hitting for power. A weaker hitter would only be able to place one block in the strike zone and maybe two (ie, a single & a double) in the hit chart. A great pitcher would also be allowed to place more blocks that signify taking away such hits (starting from homerun and moving down to a single). The key is that the batter never has enough blocks to completely guarantee the bigger hits like the triple and homerun, and the pitcher will never be able to completely shut down the offense unless he gets the batter to miss on the swing. So for example, say the pitcher can only place one block on one of the three HR spots, but the batter has enough to place blocks on 2 of the 3 HR spots. If one of the batter's blocks matches the pitcher's placement, the batter hits a home run. If not, he makes an out.

So in short, each side essentially hides their block placement for the strike zone & hit chart before revealing to each other at the same time, thus resolving the at bat.

I feel like this approach forces both sides to invest in the at bat (ie, how should I allocate my hits with a runner on 3rd, will he throw yet another pitch down the heart of the plate when I'm guessing low & away, etc.) versus simply rolling die. Admittedly I'm not a huge boardgamer, just a baseball fan who likes thinking about mechanics for this particular gaming scenario.

Just for reference, some other baseball games that I thought offered nice ideas for recreating the batter/pitcher matchup are Pizza Box Baseball, XtraInnings and Game of the Week: Sports Action in Baseball.

Anyone have any thoughts on such a mechanic? Are there other games that use a similar mechanic or remind you of this?

Thanks,
Peter





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Mike Siggins
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I think 3m baseball would be worth a look.
 
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George Nebesnik
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Peter

How familiar are you with baseball simulation games? Most sim games either use dice or cards or even both to accomplish this.

There are a few factors of baseball sims that make them attractive. One is the ability to play games solo. One is the ability to get that pitcher-hitter interaction in 30 minutes or less. Most fans of baseball sims do projects. They might like to complete full season replays or throw a bunch of teams in a tournament and play games that way.

The two games that come to mind you need to look at are Inside Pitch and Replay Baseball. Both games are very good at what you are trying to accomplish. Inside pitch for example uses a 6x6 grid on both their hitters cards and pitcher cards. In most at bats you will take the results from both and basically add them together to get your result. Both games use dice but I think in Replay you can use fast action cards instead of dice.

Don't take my post the wrong way. We have a ton of baseball games on the market and there is always room for more. Being a fan of euro games and baseball sims I like your idea of action selection with cubes. My concerns would be how can I play it solo and how can I do it in 60 minutes or less?

Seriously though check out Inside Pitch and Replay Baseball. If you've never played anything like those, they will change your life.

George

 
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You might be interested in looking at Bottom of the 9th. It uses dice for the actual swing, but has a core non-random element of High.low/inside outside that captures the psychological element.

I like the cube/batter box idea. Sort of like Battleship, almost. Lots of design room here. Maybe more powerful hitters have more cubes, so you can double up cubes instead of spreading them out for more power but lowering your chances of a hit.
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Sounds like a neat idea. I agree that better hitters should get more cubes to place, and better pitchers should get fewer, and if one or more match up, the batter makes contact.

Perhaps instead of grid locations corresponding to certain hits, the batter could have different colored cubes that signify better or worse contact, and whichever one matches up determines the quality of hit. If your "sweet spot" cube matches up with his pitch, it's a home run, but if your worst color matches up it's merely fouled off.

One concern would be the time this would take. each batter could consume up to 5 minutes of play time, so an entire game could take all night. An Alternative might be to have once placement for three batters, and resolving the hits/outs in bunches, but this would limit some of the strategy.
 
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Frank McNally
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Shouldn't the choice of pitch type/location affect chance of HR?

Perhaps batter could have extra cubes if he chooses to swing for contact (or for sacrifice) and fewer when swinging for fence.
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George Nebesnik
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FrankM wrote:
Shouldn't the choice of pitch type/location affect chance of HR?

Perhaps batter could have extra cubes if he chooses to swing for contact (or for sacrifice) and fewer when swinging for fence.


That sounds like a cool idea. Maybe each hitter and pitcher have "points" they can spend on cubes and the better result cubes like homers and strikeouts cost more points.
 
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gen1400 wrote:
FrankM wrote:
Shouldn't the choice of pitch type/location affect chance of HR?

Perhaps batter could have extra cubes if he chooses to swing for contact (or for sacrifice) and fewer when swinging for fence.


That sounds like a cool idea. Maybe each hitter and pitcher have "points" they can spend on cubes and the better result cubes like homers and strikeouts cost more points.

Just let the batter stack their blocks. If the batter hits the ball with 2 stacked blocks it indicates a clean hit.
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Matthew Proper-Lee
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gen1400 wrote:
FrankM wrote:
Shouldn't the choice of pitch type/location affect chance of HR?

Perhaps batter could have extra cubes if he chooses to swing for contact (or for sacrifice) and fewer when swinging for fence.


That sounds like a cool idea. Maybe each hitter and pitcher have "points" they can spend on cubes and the better result cubes like homers and strikeouts cost more points.


Not quite the same because it was a ccg, but Top of the Order had a clever way to manage pitches and special pitches with a result grid that worked pretty well simply comparing the pitcher and batter levels (using red, yellow and green boxes) and giving reasonably quick results.
 
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Thanks for all the input everyone. Lots to think about

sumo wrote:
I think 3m baseball would be worth a look.

I couldn't seem to find 3M Baseball on BGG?

gen1400 wrote:
How familiar are you with baseball simulation games? Most sim games either use dice or cards or even both to accomplish this.

George, I have much admiration for IP and RPB. I've played SOM and also own History Maker Baseball, but was trying to shoot for a game that isn't a simulation but rather more of a semi-casual game that isn't trying to recreate historical stats, etc. In fact, I was thinking more of a fictional world of baseball--(I am also currently playing Baseball Highlights 2045 and enjoy that immensely.) So all this while trying to move away from dice checks. I definitely am hearing you about solo play and games under an hour. It's something I'll be thinking and working thru.

Sivilized wrote:
You might be interested in looking at Bottom of the 9th. It uses dice for the actual swing, but has a core non-random element of High.low/inside outside that captures the psychological element.

I like the cube/batter box idea. Sort of like Battleship, almost. Lots of design room here. Maybe more powerful hitters have more cubes, so you can double up cubes instead of spreading them out for more power but lowering your chances of a hit.

I like the relative simplicity of BOT9, just not sure about the speed rolling portion.

Yes, the power hitters would have more cubes. I may not have explained it clearly, but I think we're essentially in agreement regarding the idea of implementing power.

bird94us wrote:
Sounds like a neat idea. I agree that better hitters should get more cubes to place, and better pitchers should get fewer, and if one or more match up, the batter makes contact.

Perhaps instead of grid locations corresponding to certain hits, the batter could have different colored cubes that signify better or worse contact, and whichever one matches up determines the quality of hit. If your "sweet spot" cube matches up with his pitch, it's a home run, but if your worst color matches up it's merely fouled off.

One concern would be the time this would take. each batter could consume up to 5 minutes of play time, so an entire game could take all night. An Alternative might be to have once placement for three batters, and resolving the hits/outs in bunches, but this would limit some of the strategy.

I'll think thru the idea of adding different colored cubes. Not sure if it would complicate the resolution process for a clean/quick game. I did have a "Foul Ball" option for certain hitters (who I assigned greater contact ability), thus giving them another chance. I realize that NOT giving all hitters the foul ball option departs a bit from the purity of the game, hence my earlier comments about its' abstracted nature.

Actually, the resolution of each batter could be done in less than 30 seconds (place your blocks and reveal), depending on analysis paralysis, once the game is familiar. It's only one chance per batter (unless they have a "Foul Ball" option.

FrankM wrote:
Shouldn't the choice of pitch type/location affect chance of HR?

Perhaps batter could have extra cubes if he chooses to swing for contact (or for sacrifice) and fewer when swinging for fence.

This is where it becomes abstracted a bit, for fear of going down a more complicated path. In terms of extra cubes, yes, I had entertained this idea of allowing a batter (who had 3 cubes for his strike zone) the option of only placing one block in the zone, thus giving him those remaining 2 cubes to add to his hit chart. So he would be rewarded with a better hit/hit probability/power only if he connected. I would need to test the balance of cubes for both the zone and the chart.

holgerd wrote:
Just let the batter stack their blocks. If the batter hits the ball with 2 stacked blocks it indicates a clean hit.

Hmm, I like the simplicity of this approach versus having 2 grids of placement. Wondering if it's almost too simple as it denies the pitching player any strategy other than placing his lone block--although I did think about having lesser pitchers (or tired pitchers) being required to place multiple blocks in the zone thus increasing tension. I'll need to test both approaches and get more feedback as I can already see some differences in the result.

For example...
STRIKE ZONE ONLY(batter has 4 blocks but can only place in a max of 2 zones): The batter places 3 blocks on one zone and 1 block on another but connects on the 3-zone, he hits a triple.

STRIKE ZONE(batter can select 2 zones) + HIT CHART(batter has 5 blocks): The batter places blocks in 2 different spots and connects on one of them for a hit. Batter places block on SINGLE, DOUBLE, DOUBLE, TRIPLE, HOMERUN. The pitcher denies him a HOMERUN & TRIPLE thru his placement. Batter ends up with a double.

Thanks again, all. Really appreciate all the help and feedback.

Peter
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playball wrote:
holgerd wrote:
Just let the batter stack their blocks. If the batter hits the ball with 2 stacked blocks it indicates a clean hit.

Hmm, I like the simplicity of this approach versus having 2 grids of placement. Wondering if it's almost too simple as it denies the pitching player any strategy other than placing his lone block--although I did think about having lesser pitchers (or tired pitchers) being required to place multiple blocks in the zone thus increasing tension. I'll need to test both approaches and get more feedback as I can already see some differences in the result.

For example...
STRIKE ZONE ONLY(batter has 4 blocks but can only place in a max of 2 zones): The batter places 3 blocks on one zone and 1 block on another but connects on the 3-zone, he hits a triple.

STRIKE ZONE(batter can select 2 zones) + HIT CHART(batter has 5 blocks): The batter places blocks in 2 different spots and connects on one of them for a hit. Batter places block on SINGLE, DOUBLE, DOUBLE, TRIPLE, HOMERUN. The pitcher denies him a HOMERUN & TRIPLE thru his placement. Batter ends up with a double.

Thanks again, all. Really appreciate all the help and feedback.

Peter



I like the idea that the batter is anticipating the pitch by placing swing blocks into a grid, but where is the cat-and-mouse if the pitcher is randomly placing his pitch block(s)? It seems like the batter needs to be able to get some information about the pitch in order to react.

Maybe have the pitcher play differently than the batter.

Each pitcher has a small deck of their possible pitches. I'm thinking maybe only 4-5 cards in total? These cards might have more than one zone blacked out depending on pitching skill. The pitcher also has a reserve of strength/speed cubes hidden behind a screen.

Each pitch, the player selects a pitch card showing a zone in the grid, and a number of cubes representing strength. If the batter places any cubes in the right zone, FB?. If the batter places the same or more cubes in the right zone, he hits and you simply add up all the cubes to determine if its a Single, Double, Trip or HR. So a strong pitch and a big swing that connect will yield more HRs.

So the interesting cat-and-mouse comes into play as the batter watches what the pitcher is throwing. The pitcher is throwing/discarding pitch cards each turn and the batter is better able to guess what is left and what the pitcher might select. The batter is also able to see how much strength has been spent.

Lets say each pitcher has a right down the middle strike card in his hand; and whenever he plays that card, he picks up all the pitch cards he's played so far; in order to reset his pitching options, he has to play something "obvious". So now the batter knows a little something about what the pitcher can do, and knows that at some point, he's probably going to pitch it right down the middle.

You'd do the same thing for strength. The pitcher can choose to add no cubes to the pitches strength and is then allowed to take back X strength cubes. So again, the batter can kind of tell when hes really got to slug in order to hit something, or if he can just cover the strike zone to connect.

It's still a guessing game for the batter, but hes got some info to work from, instead of swinging in the dark.

 
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klz_fc wrote:
Not quite the same because it was a ccg, but Top of the Order had a clever way to manage pitches and special pitches with a result grid that worked pretty well simply comparing the pitcher and batter levels (using red, yellow and green boxes) and giving reasonably quick results.


Matt, thanks for the heads up. I actually like the relative simplicity of the matchup in TOTO, particularly the option for the batter to influence the result strategically (ie, pull, opposite field, etc). But I also cringe at the result grid's cryptic nature--something I want to avoid in a more semi-casual baseball game. However, I can see myself playing TOTO and enjoying it very much.
 
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supafrieke wrote:
I like the idea that the batter is anticipating the pitch by placing swing blocks into a grid, but where is the cat-and-mouse if the pitcher is randomly placing his pitch block(s)? It seems like the batter needs to be able to get some information about the pitch in order to react.

Maybe have the pitcher play differently than the batter.

Each pitcher has a small deck of their possible pitches. I'm thinking maybe only 4-5 cards in total? These cards might have more than one zone blacked out depending on pitching skill. The pitcher also has a reserve of strength/speed cubes hidden behind a screen.

Each pitch, the player selects a pitch card showing a zone in the grid, and a number of cubes representing strength. If the batter places any cubes in the right zone, FB?. If the batter places the same or more cubes in the right zone, he hits and you simply add up all the cubes to determine if its a Single, Double, Trip or HR. So a strong pitch and a big swing that connect will yield more HRs.

So the interesting cat-and-mouse comes into play as the batter watches what the pitcher is throwing. The pitcher is throwing/discarding pitch cards each turn and the batter is better able to guess what is left and what the pitcher might select. The batter is also able to see how much strength has been spent.

Lets say each pitcher has a right down the middle strike card in his hand; and whenever he plays that card, he picks up all the pitch cards he's played so far; in order to reset his pitching options, he has to play something "obvious". So now the batter knows a little something about what the pitcher can do, and knows that at some point, he's probably going to pitch it right down the middle.

You'd do the same thing for strength. The pitcher can choose to add no cubes to the pitches strength and is then allowed to take back X strength cubes. So again, the batter can kind of tell when hes really got to slug in order to hit something, or if he can just cover the strike zone to connect.

It's still a guessing game for the batter, but hes got some info to work from, instead of swinging in the dark.



Eric, I think I hear you on this but wasn't quite clear. Did you mean that the pitcher would declare the pitch/speed, such as 'fastball/high velocity(ie, 4 cubes)', and then both sides proceed to guess the zone, thus giving the batter just a little hint of what's coming? My goal was to try to avoid using additional pitch cards (although this may not be possible particularly for solo-play).

Maybe I'm being too simplistic in the cat-and-mouse, but to me the C&M game is very evident in the very simple act of guessing/outwitting. I'm curious as to what others might think here? IMHO, the pitcher isn't necessarily randomly placing his pitch blocks, since every placement has some sort of influence as to what his next placement might be as he tries to outwit the batter. I suppose someone could purposely use a completely random strategy as their de facto strategy, but I'm also thinking, and perhaps hoping that both players would dance the dance just as in a real duel. For example, "He threw me a fastball on the outside corner? Maybe he'll come in hard on me next? Or will he try to sneak another one in the same spot? Or maybe he'll try to slip his change up right down the pipe when I'm looking dead red inside?" That in itself is enough of a head game, IMHO. So the other person (batter) is probably hoping to find some type of pattern that the opponent might be using at various times. Maybe I need to play test it with people to get a better feel of their strategy/behaviors.

XEEN wrote:
This is awesome. The same hitter can bat for percentage (spread my blocks around) or power (stack 'em all on one spot).


Thanks, Michael. Yes, the goal is to give the gamer even if just a bit more semblance of strategy/manipulation than merely rolling dice. It's not a hardcore sim, but it's not meant to be.



 
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This sounds like a great idea

Some aspects of the pitching hitting aspect can be brought in as well
- Initial Angle
- Speed of the pitch
- Curve

- Batters intention
- Batters reaction

How about instead of placing individual cubes the batter has some preconfigured cards (they contain colours for where their strike zone is and the result of the hit based on the speed of the ball, they can select three to play.

The pitcher can select two cards one being initial angle, speed and curve, second being adjustments based on the pitch.

The pitcher could reveal the initial card, at which point the batter selects his response from his set of three and then the adjustments are revealed.
 
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The more you add the slower it gets!
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Baseball coach here. Former player. Son of a player. Playing again this season. When I'm not playing Strato-matic, I reach for Famous Fastballs: The World's Smallest Baseball Game. Brilliant gem of a game. Cat and mouse psych-out game of batter versus pitcher.

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playball wrote:

Eric, I think I hear you on this but wasn't quite clear. Did you mean that the pitcher would declare the pitch/speed, such as 'fastball/high velocity(ie, 4 cubes)', and then both sides proceed to guess the zone, thus giving the batter just a little hint of what's coming? My goal was to try to avoid using additional pitch cards (although this may not be possible particularly for solo-play).

Maybe I'm being too simplistic in the cat-and-mouse, but to me the C&M game is very evident in the very simple act of guessing/outwitting. I'm curious as to what others might think here? IMHO, the pitcher isn't necessarily randomly placing his pitch blocks, since every placement has some sort of influence as to what his next placement might be as he tries to outwit the batter. I suppose someone could purposely use a completely random strategy as their de facto strategy, but I'm also thinking, and perhaps hoping that both players would dance the dance just as in a real duel. For example, "He threw me a fastball on the outside corner? Maybe he'll come in hard on me next? Or will he try to sneak another one in the same spot? Or maybe he'll try to slip his change up right down the pipe when I'm looking dead red inside?" That in itself is enough of a head game, IMHO. So the other person (batter) is probably hoping to find some type of pattern that the opponent might be using at various times. Maybe I need to play test it with people to get a better feel of their strategy/behaviors.


I was thinking the pitcher would select both the strength/speed of the pitch and the pitch's location in secret. What would be visible to the batter, would be the number of strength cubes that have been exhausted during previous pitches and the locations of those pitches.

Since the pitcher would be selecting from a limited set of pitches and have a ~known strength, the batter might be able to better determine what the pitcher was throwing.

I think that my solution lends itself pretty well to solo play, the batter could just shuffle the pitch cards and then draw the top card. The only problem would be when the center strike pitch is drawn last, the batter would know what is coming up. Strength cubes could also be randomly drawn from a bag (mix some white and black cubes, draw three and only count the black cubes).

I'm not sure exactly how you'd do the same thing for batters in solo play though.

Maybe I was misunderstanding the original pitch scenario. Can describe exactly the number and configuration of pitchable locations? Do you only allow the pitcher to throw strikes, can you walk a batter? Can you explain a bit more how previous pitches influence future pitches in your scenario? I do like the pure head game that can occur with a totally open system; I'm just the kind of guy that likes to make up rules and complicated resolution systems.

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playball wrote:
klz_fc wrote:
Not quite the same because it was a ccg, but Top of the Order had a clever way to manage pitches and special pitches with a result grid that worked pretty well simply comparing the pitcher and batter levels (using red, yellow and green boxes) and giving reasonably quick results.


Matt, thanks for the heads up. I actually like the relative simplicity of the matchup in TOTO, particularly the option for the batter to influence the result strategically (ie, pull, opposite field, etc). But I also cringe at the result grid's cryptic nature--something I want to avoid in a more semi-casual baseball game. However, I can see myself playing TOTO and enjoying it very much.


While it is not exactly friendly at a look, especially the cryptic looking results you noted, I wonder if it might help you to customize your own system with your own impressions of how you think a simplified version of that might work. In essence, letting the players use a specific pitch type/batting stance and perhaps using a deck of cards that randomizes which color combinations appear for that specific at-bat would make it pretty streamlined and a quick resolution despite adding in some depth that isn't normally in simulations.

Looking forward to seeing what you end up with at any rate!
 
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gmuller wrote:
This sounds like a great idea

Some aspects of the pitching hitting aspect can be brought in as well
- Initial Angle
- Speed of the pitch
- Curve

- Batters intention
- Batters reaction

How about instead of placing individual cubes the batter has some preconfigured cards (they contain colours for where their strike zone is and the result of the hit based on the speed of the ball, they can select three to play.

The pitcher can select two cards one being initial angle, speed and curve, second being adjustments based on the pitch.

The pitcher could reveal the initial card, at which point the batter selects his response from his set of three and then the adjustments are revealed.


I'll take a look another look at how I might be able to add batter intention or pitch type, but only if I can get it to resolve easily without having too many variables to track. I lean towards abstracting the game (ie, removing pitch type, no R/L matchups, etc) if it means for an easier, more enjoyable game. As sumo mentioned, I fear the game may slow down or get bogged down in the details.

My other thought, and I guess I didn't really mention this earlier, is that I'd like a game where each opponent would bring nothing but his/her 25-card deck team (just like a real 25-man roster) to play with no other mechanic cards, just a playing board and maybe one baserunning resolution card (or incorporating it into the game board). That and a small satchel of cubes. I may be asking for too much but I'll be giving it my best shot.



 
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sumo wrote:
The more you add the slower it gets!


Indeed!
 
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DaveyJJ wrote:
Baseball coach here. Former player. Son of a player. Playing again this season. When I'm not playing Strato-matic, I reach for Famous Fastballs: The World's Smallest Baseball Game. Brilliant gem of a game. Cat and mouse psych-out game of batter versus pitcher.


I checked out FF awhile ago and found it a neat, simple game. Definitely a great, simple abstraction of the game. I'm shooting for a little bit more, namely giving talent & personality to each batter/pitcher.
 
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supafrieke wrote:
I was thinking the pitcher would select both the strength/speed of the pitch and the pitch's location in secret. What would be visible to the batter, would be the number of strength cubes that have been exhausted during previous pitches and the locations of those pitches.

Since the pitcher would be selecting from a limited set of pitches and have a ~known strength, the batter might be able to better determine what the pitcher was throwing.

I think that my solution lends itself pretty well to solo play, the batter could just shuffle the pitch cards and then draw the top card. The only problem would be when the center strike pitch is drawn last, the batter would know what is coming up. Strength cubes could also be randomly drawn from a bag (mix some white and black cubes, draw three and only count the black cubes).

I'm not sure exactly how you'd do the same thing for batters in solo play though.

Maybe I was misunderstanding the original pitch scenario. Can describe exactly the number and configuration of pitchable locations? Do you only allow the pitcher to throw strikes, can you walk a batter? Can you explain a bit more how previous pitches influence future pitches in your scenario? I do like the pure head game that can occur with a totally open system; I'm just the kind of guy that likes to make up rules and complicated resolution systems.



Eric, thanks for the clarification. All this talk about abstraction on my part and yet I cringe at the thought of not being able to use any pitch and place any pitch whenever I want (ie, not limiting the supply). I don't know.

My earlier thoughts on previous pitches was purely about what goes on in each gamer's head (ie, remembering your opponents last pitch location and simply wondering what he might throw next), not anything to do with mechanics if that makes sense.

Right now I'm playing around with a 5-zone area (4 corners and one down the pipe). I may need to expand the zone with testing. I also created an edge zone for the pitcher for walks. So say a pitcher has to place 3 blocks but is worried about getting hit (with only 5 zones available). He can place one block in a zone and the other 2 on the edges of other zones. But if the batter matches a zone where the pitcher chose an edge zone, it results in a walk. Also, intentional walks would always an option, just as in real life.

Thanks for giving your input again. I don't mind people suggesting different mechanics as it's such a great exchange of ideas, but ultimately I'm hoping to create a game that plays simple, yet requires constant input (vs. rolling die), great for adults and kids, is light and yet where you feel like you're ready to pit your 25-man roster (or maybe just a 12-man roster) against someone else's.



 
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klz_fc wrote:
While it is not exactly friendly at a look, especially the cryptic looking results you noted, I wonder if it might help you to customize your own system with your own impressions of how you think a simplified version of that might work. In essence, letting the players use a specific pitch type/batting stance and perhaps using a deck of cards that randomizes which color combinations appear for that specific at-bat would make it pretty streamlined and a quick resolution despite adding in some depth that isn't normally in simulations.

Looking forward to seeing what you end up with at any rate!


Thanks again, Matt. I'm really gonna have to think hard about pitch type because my gut says not to do it, but that may change. I'll experiment with different color blocks to see if I can get it right and/or use this to create an advanced version of play.
 
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