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Subject: Armory and Bell Tower combined rss

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Phil
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In our game this evening, player B had built the Bell Tower and decided that the game would end with seven districts. In a later round Player A completed seven districts and thus assumed the game would end that round. Player B also completed seven districts in the same round. However, then it came to player C who possessed the Armory.
Player C wanted to use the Armory to destroy the Bell Tower.
From other threads it is clear that the Armory (unlike the Warlord) can indeed be used to destroy districts in completed cities, so presumably the Bell Tower can be destroyed in this way.
The question is whether this is now still the last round, or whether the endgame conditions reset now to 8 districts, and neither Player A nor Player B have sufficient. The wording on the Bell Tower card suggests that if at any time the bell tower is destroyed, the endgame conditions are reset. However, on the other hand, the spirit of the game seems to suggest that once someone has satisfied the endgame conditions in force at the time, that is the final round of the game.
Any thoughts or advice?
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John
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I think there is an official ruling that once the endgame condition has been met then the game will end that round even if the endgame condition is no longer met at the end of the round.

Edit here it is from the FAQ thread:

ackmondual wrote:

--Can a player use the Armory to take out a completed city?
\yes \according to Bruno. src: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/794289#794289

--If so, does the game go on or does it end?
\It ends \according to Bruno. src: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/794711#794711
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Phil
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I had looked at that thread, and agree with the interpretation for a city completed with 8 districts. The particular issue for the Bell Tower is that the card says:
'...you may announce that the game will end after the round in which a player first places his seventh district. You may do this even if the Bell Tower is your seventh district. If the Bell Tower is later destroyed, the endgame conditions return to normal'
The order of sentences can be interpreted (perhaps in the most obvious way)to mean that the Bell Tower can be destroyed 'later' than when someone has a complete 7 district city, and if so the endgame conditions return to the standard 8 districts (i.e. as in the situation we had).
However, the 'later' could also be interpreted as relating only to the first clause (i.e. any time after the Bell Tower is placed) but not intentionally referring to the situation where the Bell tower is the seventh district. This is a less straightforward reading, but seems more in the spirit of the game, and to make more sense of typical situations (why particularly talk about 'later' than when someone builds the Bell Tower as 7th district?)
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John
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That ruling isn't ackmondual's ruling but from Bruno Faidutti (Citadels designer). He admits that it it a bit unclear in the rules (see the link) but states that this is how he intended the cards to interact.

Feel free to play it another way if you prefer though!
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Stephen Nash
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zabdiel wrote:
That ruling isn't ackmondual's ruling but from Bruno Faidutti (Citadels designer). He admits that it it a bit unclear in the rules (see the link) but states that this is how he intended the cards to interact.

Feel free to play it another way if you prefer though!


I think Phil is clear regarding Bruno's statements. (I feel able to say this with some confidence as I was one of those at the table with Phil) The problem is in regard to how exactly end game conditions 'return to normal' in the situation he encountered.

The conversation referenced is in regard to the use of the Armory card. While it doesn’t directly deal with the Bell Tower card and the original post didn’t ask for clarification on what is meant by ‘game end conditions,’ the discussion further down the thread does deal with game end conditions.

From Bruno's comments, it is seems clear (to me) that ‘game end conditions’ are referring to a trigger that once triggered can’t be untriggered. What is meant by ‘game end conditions?’ They are the conditions which, once met, cause the game to end.

If you transpose all of this onto the Bell Tower/Armory situation, once the game end conditions are met, the game will end at the end of that round.

Now to the crux of the ambiguity: how exactly do game end conditions return to normal after a player builds a seventh district and then the Bell Tower is destroyed? If game end conditions refer to a trigger that can’t be untriggered, it would seem that the game should end with that round.

I can (really, I can) understand how it could be interpreted that returning game end conditions to normal (8 districts trigger game end) renders a game end triggered by 7 districts + Bell Tower void. But, this seems to go against the spirit of game end conditions as described in the rules (and clarified by Bruno). If there is an exception to the trigger that can’t be untriggered, this is the only one.
 
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John
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You're right, I don't think Bruno covers this exact scenario. I should have read the threads more carefully. However I still think that the game should end.
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Stephen Nash
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I messaged Bruno directly on this issue and got the following response:

faidutti wrote:
Well, that's an interesting question, and though I remember having dealt with it once.... I don't remember how ;-). Id' say now that, yes, you can use the Armory to destroy the Bell Tower, but the game end is still triggered.


So, there you go. An answer directly from the top.
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