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Subject: Hivemind Query: wired connection over coax or phone jacks rss

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Jeff
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Hi folks,

Well, my googlefu is once again failing me, and I've come back to Chit Chat in a quest for wisdom and enlightenment (as I usually do!)

Today's project: wired internet connections in my home.

My house has a whole-house setup that I thought I was going to use to make hardwired connections throughout the house, and just use the wireless internet as a backup for those times I didn't want to actually mess with plugging in a cable. turns out that it IS wired pretty liberally with jacks - but those jacks are all either coax cables (presumably for TV of some sort) or phone-type connections.

My question: can I use either of the existing wiring types to route internet to the outlets where I want them?

I was hoping it would be as easy as finding some sort of adapter to directly connect the cat 5 line to the coax, then another adapter at the other end to go back to cat 5, and I'd be done - but that doesn't seem to be the case. I've seen some info about the MoCA allowing setups like this - but they also seem a little pricey (at $150 for a pair of adapters, and I'd need several for the various rooms in the house) so I'm hoping for a cheaper solution.

From what info I've been able to find, it does appear that there isn't a solution involving running the cat 5 signal over the telephone jacks (cat 3) cables, but if anyone knows otherwise, I'd be happy to hear ideas.

Re reading this it seems a little vague, so the basic question is: can I use a coax cable in place of a cat 5 cable in a home network application?
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David Dixon
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My question is... why?

Save the time and effort and buy a new router with plenty of bandwidth and make it as secure as is necessary/convienent for you.

Why bother with the cord plugging and unplugging and all that?

Diis
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Michael Carter
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Diis wrote:
My question is... why?

Save the time and effort and buy a new router with plenty of bandwidth and make it as secure as is necessary/convienent for you.

Why bother with the cord plugging and unplugging and all that?

Diis


Wifi isn't as fast nor as good quality as a cat5.

Regarding the OP, don't know. Doesn't sound likely.
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Chris Long
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jeffreyac wrote:
My question: can I use either of the existing wiring types to route internet to the outlets where I want them?


Well maybe, but it's probably not going to be good quality.

jeffreyac wrote:
I was hoping it would be as easy as finding some sort of adapter to directly connect the cat 5 line to the coax, then another adapter at the other end to go back to cat 5, and I'd be done - but that doesn't seem to be the case. I've seen some info about the MoCA allowing setups like this - but they also seem a little pricey (at $150 for a pair of adapters, and I'd need several for the various rooms in the house) so I'm hoping for a cheaper solution.


As far as I know, the coax is out. I mean sure you can get internet through your TV line, but that's signals from the cable company that are translated out by the cable modem. The pricey stuff you're talking about would essentially do the same thing. But "adapters" just don't exist, which is why there's no cheap option.

As for the phone lines... is it old school phone lines or is it actually Cat3 cabling? In particular, I'm wondering if the phone lines use twisted pairs? Because that will make a big difference in speed and quality.

jeffreyac wrote:
From what info I've been able to find, it does appear that there isn't a solution involving running the cat 5 signal over the telephone jacks (cat 3) cables, but if anyone knows otherwise, I'd be happy to hear ideas.


Well mostly because it's a bad idea. But it's still possible.

See internet for speeds in the 10/100 Mbps range only use two pairs of wires. Cat3 cables have two pairs of wires so in theory that's all you need. What you'd want to do is wire up a little adapter piece by hand. I'm thinking an RJ11 jack on one end and an RJ45 jack on the other, connected by some wire. Just make sure you put all the same colored wires in the same order with every adapter you make. The pattern you use is irrelevant but must remain consistent with itself. And when wiring up the Cat5 side, only use the middle 4 slots.

That should work, but your quality will probably be poor. Cat3 just isn't rated for internet and doesn't have the kind of shielding on wires to keep interference from slowing down your traffic. If the wires in your house are old school phone lines instead, then the pairs of wires aren't twisted and the interference will be worse, but in theory still possible.

Bottom line? You're going to get better speeds out of wireless than anything you try to do here.
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Billy McBoatface
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You can send data over just about anything*, but crappy old phone wires/random coax will be much slower than a good modern wifi.

Ignore the cables. Go with wifi.

* - If you have the right device. Which might not be easy to find or affordable for the wires in your house.
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kSwingrÜber
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Just buy yourself a roll of CAT-5 cable, some ends,
an end-putter-onner tool, and a bunch of staples.

Run cables wherever you need them, staple them up to
the walls/ceilings so you don't trip over them, stick
some ends on, plug 'em in, and yer good to go!
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Jeff
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Thanks for the help and advice!

mlcarter815 wrote:
Diis wrote:
My question is... why?

Save the time and effort and buy a new router with plenty of bandwidth and make it as secure as is necessary/convienent for you.

Why bother with the cord plugging and unplugging and all that?

Diis


Wifi isn't as fast nor as good quality as a cat5.


Yep, this exactly. I love the convenience of wireless, but I've found wired to be faster, with a higher transmission rate if I'm downloading, and generally more reliable (even my decent-to-good wireless router occasionally hiccups...)

So, since I thought the house could be wired up easily, figured I'd see what could be done. Looks like it might not work as I thought though...

On the quality discussion - yeah, sounds like I'm out of luck with the existing cabling then, as the whole point of this was to end up with a high quality signal through the cable - so if what I'm doing will degrade the signal, it defeats the purpose. Oh, and for:

kswingruber wrote:


Just buy yourself a roll of CAT-5 cable, some ends,
an end-putter-onner tool, and a bunch of staples.

Run cables wherever you need them, staple them up to
the walls/ceilings so you don't trip over them, stick
some ends on, plug 'em in, and yer good to go!


See, this would be my solution, pre-marriage. Ever since I've been married, I've had this extra layer of requirements added to my projects ("Honey, it has to be pretty!") that I never really worried about before. (Heck, I probably wouldn't even bother stapling them in, I'd just run the cables over the floor and if I was feeling particularly cosmopolitan, I'd throw a rug down over any I was likely to trip over. Not even a matching rug, mind you - just one I may have found in the garage...)

Strangely enough, my wife doesn't find the aesthetics involved in that idea pleasing...
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kSwingrÜber
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jeffreyac wrote:
kswingruber wrote:
Just buy yourself a roll of CAT-5 cable, some ends,an end-putter-onner tool, and a bunch of staples.
Run cables wherever you need them, staple them up to the walls/ceilings so you don't trip over them, stick some ends on, plug 'em in, and yer good to go!
See, this would be my solution, pre-marriage. Ever since I've been married, I've had this extra layer of requirements added to my projects ("Honey, it has to be pretty!") that I never really worried about before. (Heck, I probably wouldn't even bother stapling them in, I'd just run the cables over the floor and if I was feeling particularly cosmopolitan, I'd throw a rug down over any I was likely to trip over. Not even a matching rug, mind you - just one I may have found in the garage...)
Strangely enough, my wife doesn't find the aesthetics involved in that idea pleasing...

But you can buy cable in such pretty colors! A set of red and green to look like garlands at Christmas time. Orange and Black for Halloween. Yellow and White for New Years. Green and White for St.Paddy's Day. Etc! Etc! What fashion minded person wouldn't absolutely love this?

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John Hathorn
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jeffreyac wrote:
Thanks for the help and advice!

mlcarter815 wrote:
Diis wrote:
My question is... why?

Save the time and effort and buy a new router with plenty of bandwidth and make it as secure as is necessary/convienent for you.

Why bother with the cord plugging and unplugging and all that?

Diis


Wifi isn't as fast nor as good quality as a cat5.


Yep, this exactly. I love the convenience of wireless, but I've found wired to be faster, with a higher transmission rate if I'm downloading, and generally more reliable (even my decent-to-good wireless router occasionally hiccups...)

So, since I thought the house could be wired up easily, figured I'd see what could be done. Looks like it might not work as I thought though...

On the quality discussion - yeah, sounds like I'm out of luck with the existing cabling then, as the whole point of this was to end up with a high quality signal through the cable - so if what I'm doing will degrade the signal, it defeats the purpose. Oh, and for:

kswingruber wrote:


Just buy yourself a roll of CAT-5 cable, some ends,
an end-putter-onner tool, and a bunch of staples.

Run cables wherever you need them, staple them up to
the walls/ceilings so you don't trip over them, stick
some ends on, plug 'em in, and yer good to go!


See, this would be my solution, pre-marriage. Ever since I've been married, I've had this extra layer of requirements added to my projects ("Honey, it has to be pretty!") that I never really worried about before. (Heck, I probably wouldn't even bother stapling them in, I'd just run the cables over the floor and if I was feeling particularly cosmopolitan, I'd throw a rug down over any I was likely to trip over. Not even a matching rug, mind you - just one I may have found in the garage...)

Strangely enough, my wife doesn't find the aesthetics involved in that idea pleasing...

Lucky you it sounds like the house already has plenty of drops for your shiny new CAT5 (CAT6?) cables. Clip the coax cable, tape/tie-wrap your CATX to the coax and pull the coax through. The CATX will come out the other end with the coax. Easy peasy.
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kSwingrÜber
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JohnnyOffice wrote:
jeffreyac wrote:
kswingruber wrote:
Just buy yourself a roll of CAT-5 cable, some ends, an end-putter-onner tool, and a bunch of staples.
Run cables wherever you need them, staple them up to the walls/ceilings so you don't trip over them, stick some ends on, plug 'em in, and yer good to go!
See, this would be my solution, pre-marriage. Ever since I've been married, I've had this extra layer of requirements added to my projects ("Honey, it has to be pretty!") that I never really worried about before. (Heck, I probably wouldn't even bother stapling them in, I'd just run the cables over the floor and if I was feeling particularly cosmopolitan, I'd throw a rug down over any I was likely to trip over. Not even a matching rug, mind you - just one I may have found in the garage...)
Strangely enough, my wife doesn't find the aesthetics involved in that idea pleasing...
Lucky you it sounds like the house already has plenty of drops for your shiny new CAT5 (CAT6?) cables. Clip the coax cable, tape/tie-wrap your CATX to the coax and pull the coax through. The CATX will come out the other end with the coax. Easy peasy.

Yes! I think this is what I meant to say...

Just buy yourself a roll of CAT-5 cable, some ends, and an end-putter-onner tool. Using the old cabling as a "fish", simply pull the new cables thru the walls to wherever you need them, stick some ends on, plug 'em in, and yer good to go!

("doh" on me)

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Chris Long
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JohnnyOffice wrote:
Lucky you it sounds like the house already has plenty of drops for your shiny new CAT5 (CAT6?) cables. Clip the coax cable, tape/tie-wrap your CATX to the coax and pull the coax through. The CATX will come out the other end with the coax. Easy peasy.


As long as the existing Cat3 isn't stapled to the studs. My house's wires were stapled to the studs. I was very sad.
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Tim P.
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If the mains electrical wiring is sound and un-mucked-about with try ethernet over power (and not power over ethernet as that is a different thing)

I get a dodgy wireless signal in my apartment between the upstairs and downstairs and there are plenty of other wireless networks nearby fighting for bandwidth and it has been very reliable.

As always YMMV, as it does depend on how the house is wired.

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John Holder
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Unless you have a gigabit (or better) router/switch as a centralized base point to plug all the cables into, 802.11n (300Mbps) or 802.11ac(theoretical max of 7Gbps) wifi is actually a lot faster then 100Mbps old wired stuff.

24 port gigabit switches start at about the price of a 802.11ac wifi router.
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Mark Finch
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oi_you_nutter wrote:
If the mains electrical wiring is sound and un-mucked-about with try ethernet over power (and not power over ethernet as that is a different thing)

I get a dodgy wireless signal in my apartment between the upstairs and downstairs and there are plenty of other wireless networks nearby fighting for bandwidth and it has been very reliable.

As always YMMV, as it does depend on how the house is wired.



This is usually the best solution for domestic networks. Unless you have a relatively small number of devices, a wired network will typically perform better - certainly much more reliably (as in the reliability property of a network, meaning essentially 'consistently') - than wireless network which is half-duplex, shared and suscpetible to frequency collision with neighbouring wireless networks. This is especially true if your networked nodes are communicating between themselves as opposed to just to the public internet via your central router.

Ethernet over Cat-3 conforms to the now venerable 10-BaseT standard; this standard expects to reliably transmit 10Mbps for distances of upto 100metres, but often suffers from noise - most commonly near-end crosstalk (or NEXT) over domestic telephone cable. There is also the option to partially leverage your coaxial wiring via UTP baluns, which are comparitively cheap, but this rarely yields wholly satisfactory results.

In my opinion, if you're going to be running more than 3-5 devices, and those devices communicate between themselves regularly, and you live in an area where other wireless networks are present, I would recommend using powerline Ethernet over a wireless solution - although do bear in mind the caveat pointed out by Mr. Nutter.
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John Hathorn
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radynski wrote:
JohnnyOffice wrote:
Lucky you it sounds like the house already has plenty of drops for your shiny new CAT5 (CAT6?) cables. Clip the coax cable, tape/tie-wrap your CATX to the coax and pull the coax through. The CATX will come out the other end with the coax. Easy peasy.


As long as the existing Cat3 isn't stapled to the studs. My house's wires were stapled to the studs. I was very sad.

Yikes. That would put a crimp in things.
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