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Subject: A couple very minor quips about the rules... rss

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Team Ski
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I was looking over the rules and there were a couple I wasn't too sure hot on.

1. Bunkers don't have a fixed covered arc in the game. I think this should be changed as you effectively turn a bunker into a buried tank.

2. In the game, cemeteries simply slow vehicles down slightly. They should bog wheeled vehicles. I don't know of too many trucks that can move right through headstones.

3. Will there be a special rule for the KV-2 in regards to firing outside it's covered arc? The tank was notorious for how slow it turret rotated and if on an incline, it not turning at all!

4. I would love to see the crews depicted on weapons with inherent crews. It looks kind of funny seeing an AT gun without a crew on the board vs a LMG that is a part of a squad.

5. Now I know this game has been playtested quite a bit, but does anybody else think that the covered arc is too wide? Using the front armor value on an obvious side shot seems gamey to me. I know it was probably used to simplify the tracing of LOS to the vehicle, but you literally have to get past the vehicle to get a side shot at it. Plus it gives assault guns too much credit in engaging targets with a gun that might have a 20 degree traverse.

6. AT guns and Infantry guns should have a fixed covered arc as well. You just can't spin those around and engage targets since most would have been in fixed positions covering an approach.

These are really minor picks on an otherwise really sensible set of rules. I know the designer would hate to hear it, but this is what I visualize Squad Leader II would be like and that really gets me excited about OST. This is a set of no-frills rules with outstanding visual presence.

-Ski
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Atila The Hun
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Did you get the PDFS print and play stuff. I'm keen to know how it all feels. I can't wait for my game to come through the post. It's killing me.
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Craig Nicholls
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Theses are interesting points Ski. This seems like the old trade-off of detail vs complexity. What is appealing about the current OST rules are they are short and streamlined without too many exceptions or fiddliness. Shayne has already mentioned in the rules that they have had to be ruthless to keep the rules straightforward. Too far in this direction and the game becomes too simplistic and loses a lot of the nuance and flavour that it is trying to portray. Too far in the other direction and we have ASL!

I agree with most of your points. Without testing them I also think they would give more interesting decisions about how to position and maneuver with only a little extra complexity.
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Team Ski
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They hardly add complexity. You can make things too simplistic to the point of being gamey. The rules are awesome otherwise.

-Ski
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Dan Buman
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I see your points Ski. I personally think the rules are fine as is with the exception of the 360 degree firing arc on Bunkers. I always felt most WWII bunkers were designed in such away that they had a limited arc.

I like the simple rules set. You have to draw the line somewhere. You can always add the small changes you mentioned as house rules of course! Great looking game though!
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Team Ski
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Another rule I was looking at. LOS traced through a hex with hill in is treated as an obstruction. Shouldn't it block LOS?? That doesn't quite sound right unless I am misreading it.

-Ski
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Dan Buman
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Teamski wrote:
Another rule I was looking at. LOS traced through a hex with hill in is treated as an obstruction. Shouldn't it block LOS?? That doesn't quite sound right unless I am misreading it.

-Ski


A few lines above where you are talking about says:

"a hill blocks LOS"
"the edges of a hill are defined by lines"
"if LOS is traced through a hex with a hill, the hex is treated as an obstruction"

I think they mean if you are on a hill hex and your target is also on a hill hex, say several hexes away, then the hill hex between them counts as an obstruction. This must be the case if "a hill blocks LOS". This is the only way I see that a hill hex can be both an obstruction and block LOS. This is my interpretation. Either way, the wording needs to be clarified!
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Team Ski
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No doubt. I missed the other part. Thanks!

-Ski
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Shayne Logan
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Yes, if you can skirt the edge of a hill, the LOS is not blocked but degraded.

The rules are still being polished and are sitting as ver 4.0 at present but not posted yet
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Shayne Logan
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These are all good points Ski, and every one you mention was evaluated in the design stage. Along with a thousand others.
Like I said before, Rules Creep is a serious problem
An example.
Narrowing the covered arc and armour facing creates the need for side armour values.
Once these are added, someone will say you need the turret values as well. And how about an asterisk for a shot trap.
Now you need to follow turret facing and divide up coax and bow mg firepower if they're covering different arcs.
And the list keeps growing, it's a slippery slope.

1. Bunkers I don't picture as a single concrete pillbox with a firing slit out the front. I see a hex with heavy, prepared positions.

2. Cemeteries have lanes and gaps. Just my opinion, we can agree to disagree.

3. No special rule for that although many factors like slow turrets and 1,2 man turrets etc are factored into other factors of the unit, like to Hit numbers.

4.

5. Design decision.

6. Tough design decision. Easy to implement, count it as a move to spin the gun and the to hit number would be modified. But should it?
I believe a trained crew can spin the gun and engage targets in that 4 min window.

I can say that once you guys start playing, the rules will not get in your way.

I really appreciate the feedback, and though we will not always agree on things, it will help the OST grow.
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Team Ski
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Jamm22 wrote:

I really appreciate the feedback, and though we will not always agree on things, it will help the OST grow.


Thanks for the response! So each turn is 4 minutes? I know scaling time is difficult, but an AT crew cannot dial in a gun on two different targets outside their CA with shooting twice (or even three times) in a turn. I will probably have to house rule that as you make an AT gun act like an AA piece. That is an important differentiation in game terms. I can definitely see your point on taking limitations on tank design in consideration when creating to-hit roll numbers. No complaints there. As far as cemeteries go, even a lane going through a cemetery wouldn't be wide enough to handle trucks much less allowing them to enter willy-nilly from any hex. I can't see how adding a bog to a movement into a cemetery would add any complexity to the game and would make that terrain distinctive in game terms.

Trust me, I like easier rules. I just don't want rules that ignore important aspects of weapon limitations.

-Ski

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Ed Pacitto
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Jamm22 wrote:

6. Tough design decision. Easy to implement, count it as a move to spin the gun and the to hit number would be modified. But should it?
I believe a trained crew can spin the gun and engage targets in that 4 min window.


I agree with this. I have read that a Pak 40 had a rate of fire of
14 rounds a minute. That is a lot of AP rounds in a 4 minute span surprise

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Team Ski
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Richie61 wrote:
Jamm22 wrote:

6. Tough design decision. Easy to implement, count it as a move to spin the gun and the to hit number would be modified. But should it?
I believe a trained crew can spin the gun and engage targets in that 4 min window.


I agree with this. I have read that a Pak 40 had a rate of fire of
14 rounds a minute. That is a lot of AP rounds in a 4 minute span surprise



Rate of fire is independent of acquiring targets and moving a gun around. The Pak 40 weighs in at over 3,000lbs so to try to move that thing around and engage targets outside your covered arc is unreasonable in 4 minutes, especially when AT crews tended to cover avenues of approach.

I volunteer at the Air Mobility Command Museum and we recently restored a 75mm Pack Howitzer. It weighs in at 1,200lbs and that is still heavy. To spin something like that around and engage a target (yeah, I know it is not an AT gun) would be difficult to say the least. Again, how much complexity does it really add to have a fixed covered arc on artillery pieces including AT guns? Assault guns already have this.

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Ed Pacitto
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Maybe? 4 minutes is a long time span in combat.

There is another game I play and it's roughly the same idea. It's scale is 80-100 meters and a turn is approximately 2 min time. It can change
facing in a 2 minute time span, but not fire. Under OST scale it would
then have another 2 minutes to send so AP/ HE down range. Just saying.

"Change of Facing. An AFV, vehicle, or Gun may remain in its hex and change its facing during the Movement Phase as its only action. Change of facing constitutes a move, and the unit is marked with a Move marker."

This 4 member team set this one up quick from the transport setup.
Don't think they train on it 7 days a week either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsqNq9O5Y4U


Or this real 5 man team. Minute 2:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9yecemugWo


Even the Pak 38 (50mm) I have seen in action has the wheel attached during field setup.



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Team Ski
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Thanks for the videos! Man, the dust that the guns kicked up really limited their rate of fire what they could see/shoot at in the heat of combat.

-Ski
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Ed Pacitto
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Teamski wrote:
Thanks for the videos! Man, the dust that the guns kicked up really limited their rate of fire what they could see/shoot at in the heat of combat.

-Ski


I was thinking the same thing! Crazy!

That is a cool 75mm Pack! Display or reenactment use too?
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Team Ski
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Richie61 wrote:
Teamski wrote:
Thanks for the videos! Man, the dust that the guns kicked up really limited their rate of fire what they could see/shoot at in the heat of combat.

-Ski


I was thinking the same thing! Crazy!

That is a cool 75mm Pack! Display or reenactment use too?


It is strictly a museum piece still owned by the government. Those dust clouds also created hell for the crew when the tanks started firing back at the new cloud!

-Ski
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Georg von Lemberg
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Teamski wrote:
As far as cemeteries go, even a lane going through a cemetery wouldn't be wide enough to handle trucks much less allowing them to enter willy-nilly from any hex. I can't see how adding a bog to a movement into a cemetery would add any complexity to the game and would make that terrain distinctive in game terms.


One can only assume you have never been to a cemetery.
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Franck Maille
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Hello,

Just to be sure i got it right.
I need to spend some impulse points to perform opportunity fire, right?

Thanks
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Team Ski
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dregen wrote:
Hello,

Just to be sure i got it right.
I need to spend some impulse points to perform opportunity fire, right?

Thanks


Yes, you have to expend an impulse point to perform and opportunity fire. You still get your turn afterwards.

-Ski
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Franck Maille
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Thanks Ski.

So that means if my impulse dice roll is low, ennemy units could do pretty much whatever they want, even in open ground, or circling around my AFV to take a better shot with me doing nothing or so few.

I understand the concept of impulse rolls simulating poor command, bad quality communication or the lack of it, not allowing units to act.
You did that in a simple and elegant way.

But i don't get why poor command puts a stop to reaction and, at least units should be able to fire and defend themselves for free.

Sorry for my bad english
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Team Ski
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dregen wrote:
Thanks Ski.

So that means if my impulse dice roll is low, ennemy units could do pretty much whatever they want, even in open ground, or circling around my AFV to take a better shot with me doing nothing or so few.

I understand the concept of impulse rolls simulating poor command, bad quality communication or the lack of it, not allowing units to act.
You did that in a simple and elegant way.

But i don't get why poor command puts a stop to reaction and, at least units should be able to fire and defend themselves for free.

Sorry for my bad english


Well, IMHO most games allow you to do too much and do not account for fog of war, confusion, cowering or those events that make you scratch your head. I think of the impulse roll as that variable. It reflects the ebb and tide of battle.

-Ski
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Shayne Logan
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Well said Ski.
And I agree, a lot of games do allow too much.
There has to be some chaos or it's not war.

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Shayne Logan
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Hi Franck

How you use your Impulse pts is an important part of your strategy.
It's easy when you have a lot, but the key is how you use them in an unbalanced turn.
When I play, I like to hold onto Impulse pts for Opp Fire if I can. Especially when my opponent has an advantage.

And there are going to be times when your side is going to take some punishment. But how you recover from this is what matters.

I can say that the Impulse pt system does add some uncertainty to your plans. And another reason to curse your dice angry
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Shayne Logan
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Btw, the Rules are at version 4 right now so there are some changes from the ones posted at Flying Pigs.
Notably changes to Melee.
Leader casualty rolls.
And a couple of changes to AT guns, including a covered arc Ski.
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