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Subject: How much stuff can you carry? rss

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Ender Wiggins
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The rules don't seem entirely clear about how many items you can carry, and the distinction between carrying them and using them. Is the following interpretation correct?

Carrying items
When an item is brought into play, it is being "carried".
Limits for carrying:
Big items: one only (exception: Dwarves)
Small items: unlimited

Using items
When an item is not being used (eg disallowed by class/race, or the number of hands it requires), it is turned side-ways.
Limits for using: one headgear, one suit of armor, one pair of footgear, two "hand" items (or one "two-hands" item).

Hirelings and items
A Hireling lets you carry an extra Big item, but the same limits on using items applies.

Is this correct? If it is, then I'm wondering if the rules for Space Munchkin are slightly different regarding this. They state: "You may carry any number of items, but you can use only one Complex one." Since Complex items in Space Munchkin are the same as Big items in base Munchkin, this rule is a difference between the two games, correct? Unlike in base Munchkin, it would mean that in Space Munchkin there's no limit on the Big items that can be carried, only on their use. Is this change an improvement, or are the original Munchkin rules better on this point?

 
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Ender Wiggins
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Since I first posted this question, it has been pointed out to me that my assumption that Big items from Munchkin and Complex items from Star Munchkin are essentially the same is incorrect. The Star Munchkin rules state that Big items and Complex items are NOT the same. To illustrate how this difference works:

Carrying items
* MUNCHKIN: the general rule is that you only can carry one Big item (exceptions: when you have a Hireling, or your race is a Dwarf).
* STAR MUNCHKIN: the general rule is that you can carry an unlimited number of Complex items.

Using items
* MUNCHKIN: it is possible to use two or more Big items at the same time (assuming you can carry an extra Big item because you have a Hireling or because your race is a Dwarf). Restriction: as long as the two Big items combined can not be two sets of armor, headgear, or footgear, and cannot require you to use more than two hands.
* STAR MUNCHKIN: it is never possible to use two or more Complex items at the same time (exception: when your class is a Gadgeteer, which gives the special ability to use as many Complex items as you are carrying).

Summary
Big items do have carrying restrictions, but not usage restrictions (aside from the usual maximum of two hands, one set of armor, headgear, and footgear)
Complex items have no carrying restrictions, but do have usage restrictions (one only)

Big items: restrictions apply only to carrying, not using.
Number of hands, armor, headgear, footgear: headgear apply only to using, not carrying.

All the Big items from the base set:


All the 1-Handed (left) and 2-Handed items (right) from the base set:
.


Note how some of these are Big items and subject to the carrying limit of 1 Big item; others are Small items and can be carried in multiple amounts but are subject to usage limits of 2 Hands.
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Ender Wiggins
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I think I've figured out what caused my initial confusion: Bob Portnell's otherwise excellent flow-chart for Munchkin, downloadable from the files section on the Munchkin page. The flow-chart is very helpful, but it does contain a mistake in the information box on the right hand side, where it fails to distinguish between "carrying" and "using", and in fact confuses the two. This information box currently reads (INCORRECTLY!):

You can CARRY in play:
1x Headgear
1x Footgear
1x Armor
2x 1-Hand items
1x 2-Hand item
1x Big or Complex item
1x Sidekick
Items in play which cannot be carried should be turned sideways.

In should actually read:

You can CARRY in play:
1x Big item
Unlimited Small items
You can USE in play
1x Headgear
1x Footgear
1x Armor
2x 1-Hand items or 1x 2-Hand items
Items which are being carried but cannot be used should be turned sideways.

Aside from this, the chart is rather useful!
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Mark Biggar
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It should be noted that a "Cheat" card lets you get around usage restrictions, but not carry restrictions. You can use a "Cheat" card to use a second "Complex" item, but cannot use one to carry a second "Big" item.
 
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Ender Wiggins
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mark_biggar wrote:
It should be noted that a "Cheat" card lets you get around usage restrictions, but not carry restrictions. You can use a "Cheat" card to use a second "Complex" item, but cannot use one to carry a second "Big" item.

Why not? It seems to me that the wording on the Cheat card would allow this. Or do the rules explicitly state somewhere that this is forbidden?

 
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How tall is justice?
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EndersGame wrote:
mark_biggar wrote:
It should be noted that a "Cheat" card lets you get around usage restrictions, but not carry restrictions. You can use a "Cheat" card to use a second "Complex" item, but cannot use one to carry a second "Big" item.

Why not? It seems to me that the wording on the Cheat card would allow this. Or do the rules explicitly state somewhere that this is forbidden?


The card says "have and use". They put the word "have" in there specifically to cover carrying an extra big item, which is a perfectly valid use of the cheat card.
 
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Senor EvilMonkey
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Therefore, with the use of a trusty cheat card, it would be possible to carry AND use two 2-handed 'big' items, providing that one of the items has a cheat card attached to it... devil

Are there any restrictions on the number of cheat cards someone can have in play on their character?! ninja
 
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C Lloyd
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Wibblenut wrote:
Therefore, with the use of a trusty cheat card, it would be possible to carry AND use two 2-handed 'big' items, providing that one of the items has a cheat card attached to it... devil

Are there any restrictions on the number of cheat cards someone can have in play on their character?! ninja

That's exactly how I interpret it. I don't think there's a restriction on how many cheat cards you can have in play, although I believe there's only two in the deck.
 
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Linquel Isswell
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I don't know how active this thread still is (last post in March), but I figure I'll ask this question anyway. I just tried playing Munchkin for the first time over Labor Day weekend. My brother bought it and it was brand new to all of us (and he has no Internet connection at home so we couldn't jump on line for a quick clarification).

We were debating the one-hand, two-hand issue. Based on what has been stated already in this thread, you can carry one big item (unless a dwarf) and unlimited small items. Ignoring armor, helmets, shoes, etc. and focusing strictly on one-hand and two-hand items, my understanding of the rules was that you only turned sideways items that you couldn't use due to class or race restrictions, but that all other items were available to you. As monsters came up you could use any of the non-sideways items that you were carrying as long as you didn't violate the two-hand rule (ignore handlings, etc. for this, too).

My brother interpreted the rules that you had to choose a two-hand item or combination of one-hand items to have "in hand" and turn sideways all other items (as if they were "sheathed", "packed away", etc.). If the next monster you faced needed a weapon that you chose to put away (as opposed to being restricted based on race/class) you were just screwed.

Can anyone help clarify this for me? If my scenario description isn't clear enough, let me know and I'll try to work up a more specific scenario.

Needless to say, after my brother and I started yelling we packed up Munchkin and went back to playing Mille Borne and Mexican Train Dominoes. But he's going to bring it with him when he comes down for Christmas.
 
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Ender Wiggins
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My understanding is that as soon as combat has started, you cannot switch which item you are using. So once a monster card is turned up, you can't take a time-out to leisurely check out which weapons you are carrying and decide which ones you want to use. Once the monster shows up, you don't get the luxury of that time, but have to fight the monster with the weapons you are currently using and have in your hands. Before a combat, however, (i.e. before you turn up a monster card), you can switch between the items you are carrying.

Some relevant quotes from the rules:
Quote:
"You should indicate items that can't help you, or extras not being worn, by turning the cards sideways. You may NOT switch between (for instance) helmets during a combat or while running away. ... You may not sell, trade, or steal items DURING a fight. Once you expose a monster card, you must finish the fight with the equipment you have ... You cannot steal or trade items while combat is going on."

The official FAQ also addresses this somewhat:
Quote:
Important Clarification #3: Playing/Using/Switching Items During Combat
This is pretty straightforward and is covered in the rules, but not all in the same place.
• You can't switch items during combat. In other words, you can't chose to wear a different helmet or different armor once combat has started. You also can't "unwield" one item which uses hands and "wield" another in its stead. Basically, all the items you were using or carrying must remain in their current states. Unfortunately, this means that if you lose or change your class or race, you don't start getting bonuses from other items you have in play that are usable by your new race or class, including items that anyone could use.
An example of such a case: An Elf is using the Bow with Ribbons and is carrying the Sword of Slaying Everything Except Squid. He has no extra Hands, so the Bow is using both of the Hands he has available. The Elf then goes into combat with anything but Squidzilla and is subsequently Cursed by another player to lose his race. He now loses the bonus for the Bow, and since he can't switch out the Bow and replace it with the Sword, he gets no bonus from it. As an aside: Should the player have another Elf card, he could play that immediately and get back his bonus from the Bow.
• You may play new items during combat as long as it is your turn, and, if you are allowed to use the item (without breaking the rule above), you can count the bonus for the combat you are in.
Example 1: You are in combat and due to a Curse, you are now a Cleric. In your hand is the Mace of Sharpness and you have at least one Hand free. You may play the Mace and count its bonus immediately.
Example 2: You are in combat and you are not wearing Headgear. In your hand is the Helm of Courage. You may play the Helm and count its bonus immediately.
Example 3: You are a Dwarf with Slimy Armor. In your hand is the Short Wide Armor. You may play the Short Wide Armor at this time, but you don't get its bonus instead of the Slimy Armor's because you are already wearing Armor and can't switch during combat.

The yelling that was part of your disagreement with your brother appears to be quite in keeping with the rules, however, because the official rules conclude as follows:
Quote:
"Any other disputes should be settled by loud arguments among the players, with the owner of the game having the last word."
 
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Linquel Isswell
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EndersGame wrote:
My understanding is that as soon as combat has started, you cannot switch which item you are using. So once a monster card is turned up, you can't take a time-out to leisurely check out which weapons you are carrying and decide which ones you want to use. Once the monster shows up, you don't get the luxury of that time, but have to fight the monster with the weapons you are currently using and have in your hands. Before a combat, however, (i.e. before you turn up a monster card), you can switch between the items you are carrying.

The official FAQ also addresses this somewhat:
Quote:
Important Clarification #3: Playing/Using/Switching Items During Combat
This is pretty straightforward and is covered in the rules, but not all in the same place.
• ...You also can't "unwield" one item which uses hands and "wield" another in its stead. Basically, all the items you were using or carrying must remain in their current states.


Thanks for the reply, EndersGame (side note: I love that book). I guess I never saw anything anywhere in the rules on indicating what weapons are "wielded" and which aren't or what "state" they're in. I only saw the rule about turning restricted items sideways.

How does one normally do this. Restricted items are turned sideways, and "wielded" items are set above the others or something?

As to your final point, since the game belonged to my brother, he was the one who decided to put it away and go back to dominoes, so I guess we were on track there.
 
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Alex Nguyen
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Quote:
(exception: when your class is a Gadgeteer, which gives the special ability to use as many Complex items as you are carrying)


But the items must still be equipped?

Sorry for the thread necro.
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