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Subject: Problems with just 2 rebel characters? rss

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Ryan Wolfe
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I recently read this and wanted to discuss it, but not derail the thread, so here I am.

Quote:
With two players, we found many scenarios were fairly unbalanced in one direction. A time based mission became insanely easy when we could quad move each hero in a round, however the area control missions became ludicrously hard.


I'm a campaign with just 2 rebels and we've only played one session. Should we consider restarting with the Rebels running 2 characters each, or is this not really a problem?
 
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Mike Bialecki
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I played a mission where I and another player controlled two characters. It worked well. I'll be starting a campaign as the IA player where the three players will share a fourth character amongst them. I figure it shouldn't be hard for them to deal with cooperatively and it opens a character for a new player to jump into later in the campaign.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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There's a simple house-rule to fix that small problem: Don't allow more than 2 move actions per round per hero.

-shnar
 
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Jonathan "Spartan Spawn, Sworn, Raised for Warring!"
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shnar wrote:
There's a simple house-rule to fix that small problem: Don't allow more than 2 move actions per round per hero.

-shnar


And the area control missions?
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Luftwaffe Flak wrote:
shnar wrote:
There's a simple house-rule to fix that small problem: Don't allow more than 2 move actions per round per hero.

-shnar


And the area control missions?

Not sure what you mean by this.

But my suggestion was to curtail the oddity that in 2 hero games, they can take 4 movement actions and sprint all the way across the map. The Legendary card is basically trying to make 2 Heroes be 4 Heroes, so the missions don't have to change for 'scaling' purposes. So by giving extra health and extra activations, it's almost the same (i.e. 40 health to churn through, 8 activations each round).

The biggest flaw to this scaling is the 4x movement. Everything else could be represented by 4 heroes (i.e. all 4 heroes could attack twice, could rest twice, etc, the one thing they could not do is move 4 times). So by house-ruling you cannot use more than 2 move actions per round, you remove this one flaw in the Legendary scaling mechanic.

-shnar
 
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Rob Davis
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shnar wrote:
Luftwaffe Flak wrote:
shnar wrote:
There's a simple house-rule to fix that small problem: Don't allow more than 2 move actions per round per hero.

-shnar


And the area control missions?

Not sure what you mean by this.


He's talking about the missions that require you to control 2 or more consoles or thing-a-ma-jigs to win the scenario. 2 Heroes can't be in 3 places at the same time.

Even if they only have to control 2 items, its more difficult for them b/c each Hero is then on his own.
 
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Rob Davis
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Luftwaffe Flak wrote:
shnar wrote:
There's a simple house-rule to fix that small problem: Don't allow more than 2 move actions per round per hero.

-shnar


And the area control missions?

You could try bringing an Ally along on that mission. Provided that the Rebels have one available, and can tell that they'd need him from the set-up info they have.
 
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Richard B
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Allies often can't interact with objectives. They are mostly good at blasting doors, but not good at interacting or escorting.

The other imbalance, isn't from movement, but rather that heroes are healthy for many more Wounds and it can be terribly difficult for an Imp player to deal enough damage to a hero to make an impact. If you were unaware, heroes get worse at everything once they are wounded. It is why you will find an Imp player often focusing a single hero every round. (2 if they are lucky.)

I force my groups to play 4 heroes as it has it appears to have the best balance. It's not hard to adjust from 2 to 4 if you aren't far into the game and if you've only played Aftermath, then spoiler, Rebels are favored to win that one and with knowledge of the map should win that one every time.

Just give XP and back credit the credits as if the additional heroes were always there.
 
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Jeremy N
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simland wrote:
Allies often can't interact with objectives. They are mostly good at blasting doors, but not good at interacting or escorting.

If it's a named ally they can (Luke, Han, Chewbacca).


The RRG states they automatically get 1 pass on any attribute test (i.e. open doors or interact with terminals).

They cannot rest or open crates, but they can do everything else.

Quote:
Attribute Tests
Only heroes roll dice for attribute tests. If an elite figure is required to perform an attribute test, it automatically receives 1 success. If a regular figure is required to perform a test, it automatically fails the test.


It's easy to miss, since it's under Attribute Tests (the very last bullet) and not under Allies.
 
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Richard B
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jnad83 wrote:
simland wrote:
Allies often can't interact with objectives. They are mostly good at blasting doors, but not good at interacting or escorting.

If it's a named ally they can (Luke, Han, Chewbacca).


The RRG states they automatically get 1 pass on any attribute test (i.e. open doors or interact with terminals).

They cannot rest or open crates, but they can do everything else.

Quote:
Attribute Tests
Only heroes roll dice for attribute tests. If an elite figure is required to perform an attribute test, it automatically receives 1 success. If a regular figure is required to perform a test, it automatically fails the test.


It's easy to miss, since it's under Attribute Tests (the very last bullet) and not under Allies.


Just be careful. Often the mission will state that a "hero" can do yadda yadda. In that situation, even an elite ally can not do that action. Those are the moments to which I am referring. The ones where a Rebel player goes, "What do you mean Han can't shoot this door or touch that panel? He's heroic to me!"

And thank you on the attribute test reminder. It has completely been a non factor, but I would totally have missed it if it had come up.
 
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Pasi Ojala
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Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
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simland wrote:
Just be careful. Often the mission will state that a "hero" can do yadda yadda. In that situation, even an elite ally can not do that action.

Check the FAQ / Errata. I think all of the ones we suspected that were oversights were corrected.
 
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Richard B
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Noted, thanks for pointing that out. Those 4 are relating to attacking/interacting with doors, which makes sense.
 
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Teth Adam
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IMO - this game requires 4 heroes on the board for mission balance. There are a few missions where 2 or 3 could work but the game is designed with 4 in mind. Just take a look at Luxury Cruise - it's almost non-winnable with < 4 heroes due to end of round terminal actions and the heroes not being in 2 places at once. Inversely, there are a few missions where the heroes need to do X things in under Y turns where the heroes either need to split up and bolt to the wind to win - getting those 4 move actions would make those missions cake.

I'm hopeful that the expansions take note of this discrepancy and remedy this problem.
 
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Jeremy N
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necksnappingadam wrote:
I'm hopeful that the expansions take note of this discrepancy and remedy this problem.

If it's like Descent, the problem with solve itself through Hero power creep.

*cough*Treasure Hunter*cough*

Already, the new gunner character Biv seems crazy good, looking at his class card.
 
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Erik Solo
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The biggest problem I have with 2 heroes is that simply I am one smart imperial player. Since a good chunk of missions are timed, I literally make physical barriers that the heroes have to either wasted an action to attack or an extra movement point to move through and that really slows them down. 2 heroes means only 2 target as opposed to four. I could literally split my forces in half and slowly take them out as they become surrounded. It doesn't matter if they have large amount of health, I can wait My forces are unlimited. When there's 3 or 4 now I am forced to make choices: who is the most dangerous, where is the objective, are they going to split up? if I have a villain unit who do I send it after? Do i buy a squad of storm troopers to have more bodies or do I buy a E web for suppression? What is the nearest supply crate and can i stop them from getting gear and extra bonus money? Do i move my troops forward to stall them or do I try to hold them off at the objective?

4 heroes also means more useful abilities from Gideon's command to Diala's battle mediation, it allows the rebels to better prepared for whatever the imperial throws at them. As personal experience for both sides, it just balances the game more. Of course that is just my opinion. If you have more fun playing 2, that is all that matters
 
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Ryan Wolfe
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We ran into another issue with 2 heroes tonight - it is almost impossible to Wound them. If it takes 22 damage to Wound a character and they can heal 10 point per activation (20 per round), the Imperial cannot win a mission where the goal requires all heroes to be Wounded.

It's much easier to hit the 11 point threshold that each of 4 characters would have.
 
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Christopher
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2 heroes mode is broken in favor of the heroes, for a couple reasons. First is the quad movement, but also quad healing. A buddy of mine swore off playing the game ever again after I won the first 9 missions of a campaign using 2 heroes (Mak and Diala). In most missions with 2 heroes you can just sprint to the objectives, soaking damage with the extra hp and healing when necessary.

Restart with 4 heroes if you don't want the Imperial player to hate the game.
 
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Garry Law
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In my group, we just made each rebel player control 2 heroes each.
We do use the Heroic award for when we have 3 rebel players though.
 
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Michael Albert
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I just finished a 2 player campaign. It was incredibly hard to wound them and they won all the missions except one.

However that said; the final mission seemed incredibly stacked on the side of the Empire. With the overwhelming amount of threat and units I had they could barely keep up with the incoming damage. One of them was wounded before the second door was even open. At the end Darth Vader activating every time they activate allowed 4 turns per round plus all the other Imperial forces still alive. I wish dishing out more damage then they could even compensate for if they rested twice.

Without all the extra upgrades earned from winning the majority of the missions I don't think this would even be remotely winnable for the Rebels.
 
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Dean L
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spriggster wrote:
I just finished a 2 player campaign. It was incredibly hard to wound them and they won all the missions except one.


It requires somewhat different (and un-intuitive) strategies - while harder it's not impossible. The trick is to get an advantage in activations.

The activation order will be something like: Rebel 1, Imperial group, Rebel 2, Imperial group, Rebel 1, Imperial group, Rebel 2, all remaining Imperial groups.

So when one Rebel has his last activation (so is no longer able heal that turn) you have only activated two groups. If Vader and elite Royal Guards are all you have out, that's no use. But every group you have past two is a free hit on one of the Rebels.

So to make it work you need to prioritize keeping groups alive - run that last regular Stormtrooper halfway over the map and keep him safe, and have him loiter around a room all mission, effectively allowing you to 'delay' your heavy hitters. Additionally, cheaper deployment cards are great - Probe Droids are especially good, because they hit hard, are cheap, and activate separately. Plus they give you a chance to do some un-defendable damage at the end of the round if you're a few points short of the wound.

If you have three probe droids out with two other cards, that's three clear 3-dice attacks on one of the rebels before he has a shot at healing. Nexus and Royal Guards as your other groups are also great for the Stun and Bleed, making any attempt to heal next turn less effective.

It's not the most natural way to play, but getting that activation advantage, and pressing it by activating the weaker figures first, is crucial in a way it just isn't with four rebels.
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