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Subject: Does killer need Murder Incident to kill? (Spoilers for Script 1) rss

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Jim Eleo
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I was playing the first script with some friends. The first script has some suggestions for the new Mastermind and what triggers at the end of the day.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
As we were playing my Protagonists were thinking that the Killer could kill the Key person on day 3-4. I thought the Killer could only kill if a Murder incident was supposed to happen that day. I checked the book if it says to trigger Killer skill on day 3-4 and it says to actually use it as a loss condition.

If that is true and Killer can kill without the need for a Murder incident. What does the Murder incident offer to the Mastermind?


Or I am mistaken and I have not read something correctly :/

Thanks Confusing Manifestation for reminding me that I need spoiler tag
 
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Zev Shlasinger
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Re: Does killer need Murder Incident to kill?
CloudOfTheStars wrote:
I was playing the first script with some friends. The first script has some suggestions for the new Mastermind and what triggers at the end of the day.

As we were playing my Protagonists were thinking that the Killer could kill the Key person on day 3-4. I thought the Killer could only kill if a Murder incident was supposed to happen that day. I checked the book if it says to trigger Killer skill on day 3-4 and it says to actually use it as a loss condition.

If that is true and Killer can kill without the need for a Murder incident. What does the Murder incident offer to the Mastermind?

Or I am mistaken and I have not read something correctly :/



Roles and Incidents are two different things.

The Killer role has its requirements and effects and an Incident has its culprit, which is a character, and if successful, its effect. The culprit of a Murder incident does not have to be the Killer. Any character can commit the murder - though only a specific character is the culprit per script.

Another way to look at it: Roles are given to characters and characters (not roles) are the culprits of Incidents.

Hope this helps.

Zev Shlasinger
Z-Man Games




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I H
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Re: Does killer need Murder Incident to kill?
More generally, I like to think of there being three independent* secret means by which events occur (beyond obvious card play and goodwill abilities):

1. Incident + Culprit: the Incident occurs if and only if the Culprit is at/above paranoia threshold on prescribed day
2. Roles: some have criteria to activate (goodwill/paranoia/location/etc.)
3. Plots/subplots: explicit and specific to the plot/subplot

These are also the three elements (Culprit, Roles, Plot/Subplot) that the Protagonists should attempt to discover.

(*The selection of plots/subplots determine which roles are in play, so they're not actually entirely independent.)
 
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Christian K
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Re: Does killer need Murder Incident to kill?
Also note that paranoia relates to indidents and intrigue relates to the roles of the characters have fun playing.
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Confusing Manifestation
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Re: Does killer need Murder Incident to kill?
CloudOfTheStars wrote:
As we were playing my Protagonists were thinking that the Killer could kill the Key person on day 3-4. I thought the Killer could only kill if a Murder incident was supposed to happen that day. I checked the book if it says to trigger Killer skill on day 3-4 and it says to actually use it as a loss condition.

If that is true and Killer can kill without the need for a Murder incident. What does the Murder incident offer to the Mastermind?


Probably worth editing the title of the thread to mention it's got some Scenario 1 spoilers in it.

As for your questions - The Killer is a role given to a character if the Plot is "Murder Plan". The Killer has two abilities - if, at the end of *any* day, the Killer and Key Person are at the same location, and the Key Person has at least two Intrigue on them, then the Mastermind can choose that the Key Person dies; secondly, if at the end of any day the Killer has four Intrigue on them, then the Mastermind can choose that the Protagonists die (and hence fail the loop).

A Murder is an incident. In a given scenario, it will be set to occur on a particular day. If, at the "Incidents happen" stage of the day, the culprit of the Murder has enough Paranoia on them, then one other character in the same location as the culprit dies.

In a given scenario, each character can be given one role, and they may also be the culprit of one incident. It's possible for the Killer to also be the culprit of a Murder incident, and it's also possible for one character to be the Killer and another to be the culprit of the Murder (and also for there to be a Killer, but no Murder, or a Murder but no Killer, since Incidents and Plots are not connected).

So what's the point of having both? The answer is twofold - first, it may be *thematically* appropriate. So the story that underpins the scenario may involve a Mafia hitman (Killer) as well as someone else who's just getting close to breaking point (Murder culprit). Secondly, it helps balance the scenario - probably by giving the Mastermind multiple ways to achieve his goal (for example, now there are two ways to kill the Key Person) but potentially also by giving the Protagonists a way to neutralise a threat (if they can wrangle things so that the Killer becomes victim of the Murder, assuming the Killer is not the culprit). Second-and-a-halfly, even if the Murder is unlikely to trigger a loop loss, it's something the protagonists will worry about and may affect how they approach the loop.
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Re: Does killer need Murder Incident to kill?
I've forgot where I've read this, but thematically, it's like this:

The Killer is basically a hitman. They have only one target, the Key Person, but are otherwise independent. They can kill the target (or the Protagonists) whenever.
The Killer requires Intrigue to function.

The Murder culprit is just someone who's been driven mad with fear and they lash out at whoever happens to be close by. They do not have a specified target and can even hinder the Mastermind.
The Murder culprit requires Paranoia to function.

The Serial Killer is just a maniac who kills whenever they can get away with it.
The Serial Killer doesn't require any tokens.

What's also noteworthy is that while plots and roles are closely intertwined, incidents are completely independent of that. You might have a Killer, but not even have a Murder incident.
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Jim Eleo
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As for your questions - The Killer is a role given to a character if the Plot is "Murder Plan". The Killer has two abilities - if, at the end of *any* day, the Killer and Key Person are at the same location, and the Key Person has at least two Intrigue on them, then the Mastermind can choose that the Key Person dies; secondly, if at the end of any day the Killer has four Intrigue on them, then the Mastermind can choose that the Protagonists die (and hence fail the loop).

A Murder is an incident. In a given scenario, it will be set to occur on a particular day. If, at the "Incidents happen" stage of the day, the culprit of the Murder has enough Paranoia on them, then one other character in the same location as the culprit dies.

In a given scenario, each character can be given one role, and they may also be the culprit of one incident. It's possible for the Killer to also be the culprit of a Murder incident, and it's also possible for one character to be the Killer and another to be the culprit of the Murder (and also for there to be a Killer, but no Murder, or a Murder but no Killer, since Incidents and Plots are not connected).

So what's the point of having both? The answer is twofold - first, it may be *thematically* appropriate. So the story that underpins the scenario may involve a Mafia hitman (Killer) as well as someone else who's just getting close to breaking point (Murder culprit). Secondly, it helps balance the scenario - probably by giving the Mastermind multiple ways to achieve his goal (for example, now there are two ways to kill the Key Person) but potentially also by giving the Protagonists a way to neutralise a threat (if they can wrangle things so that the Killer becomes victim of the Murder, assuming the Killer is not the culprit). Second-and-a-halfly, even if the Murder is unlikely to trigger a loop loss, it's something the protagonists will worry about and may affect how they approach the loop.[/q]

So in other words. Script 1 has the coincidence of the Killer also being a Culprit in a Murder, which in the end confused me cause I thought I needed to have 2 paranoia on Culprit AND 2 Intrigue on Key Person at day 2 (something hard but not impossible).

Thanks for clarifying that it was just a coincidence and those things were separate.

Thanks for everyone's answers
 
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Tim P.
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The title of this thread is an inherent spoiler in itself...
 
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