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Subject: Just ordered but - why no dice? rss

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I ordered the game today and am looking forward to receiving my copy in the post in the next few days. Whilst I wait I decided to read the downloadable rules. It was then that it struck me how often chit draws seem to be used when a straight forward dice roll against a chart or table would have been a lot less fiddly. In the advanced and optional rules there are many cases where you have to interpret chit draws differently (rudder hit converts to mast hit etc) or mix several chits together, sometimes as few as two, and randomly draw one. This seems like making work for the player when you could just have easily said, roll a die, on a 1-3 this "thing" happens. Likewise with the damage chits, this seems quite fiddly when you could have just had a die roll against a chart with all the symbols on it in the same proportion as the chits, and this would have had the added effect that results would still have the same probability no matter how many times you rolled, compared to the constantly fluctuating probability of a chit pool.

Don't get me wrong, I still think the game looks pretty good, and I am dying to have a go when it arrives, but I fear that all this chit-sorting and drawing, symbols meaning different things in different contexts etc, is going to get on my nerves compared to just rolling some dice.
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    Plenty of discussion on that prior to this, but the short story is that the chits you pull go to your ship chart to indicate damage. The chits on your chart show the overall health of your ship.

             S.


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Kevin Duke
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You can actually do way more with chits than you can with die roll and charts, and be way less 'fiddly.'
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Well, I suppose once I find some bags for all the chits and get used to the idea of symbols meaning "rudder" if aiming normally or "mast" if aiming high etc., I will have a better feeling about whether I would still have preferred dice. I accept though that dice too have their disadvantages. The thought of a massive pool of dice being rolled into one of those fragile ship models by mistake is pretty horrific!

Email said game was dispatched today so fingers crossed I will have it in my hands soon.
 
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    Throw the chits in teacups. The bags are a bit of a pain.

    The chits definitely have some drawbacks, and we've already found some ways to simplify the boards and the chits that go on them (I use a die to mark the partially damaged ship box, but that's a different use). Dice and charts are super-easy, card draws would have been even easier. But the chit piles on the boards get the job done.

    I'd pay extra to have 7/8" chits instead. I'm waiting for card decks that replace the chits to show up on artscow.

              S.


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Fred Miracle
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For allocating damage, chits work really well. People who have tried dice seem to have gone back to chits.

The place some people find chits less agreeable is in tracking damage. In that case you might prefer drawing out the chits, marking the damage using paper/pencil or laminate/grease-pencil, and putting the chits back in the container.

That is what I do. To help, I created an Excel spreadsheet that will let you print out up to 4 ship mats on one 8x11 sheet of paper. Saves a lot of table real-estate, as well as the potential angst of spilled chits...

http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/115024/sgn-statistics-ship...

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Andrea Angiolino
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Compared to a traditional simulation from the '70s, a chit draw is not only repliacing a dice roll.

You

take chits and put them on a track using the first uncovered statistics


instead than

rolling to hit on a chart, maybe rolling again for damage amount and again for special damages on other, using paper & pencil to track damage sudstained, and consulting more rules and chart to see the effects of those damages on your playing statistics.

I'd asy that with every basic, standard and advanced rule all symbols on the chits mean that symbol and not anything else. The very optional rule about aiming high is different, but it seems a real exception to me.

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Michael Carter
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Doesn't taking the chits out of the bag and placing them on the ship mats change the probabilities for subsequent attacks?
 
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Mayor Jim
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mlcarter815 wrote:
Doesn't taking the chits out of the bag and placing them on the ship mats change the probabilities for subsequent attacks?
Yes it does...but that's part of the game. Of course you could double the chits to help even out bad draws.
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    There's a lot of chits. I haven't run into anybody playing that was concerned about that.

             S.


 
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Sagrilarus wrote:

    Throw the chits in teacups. The bags are a bit of a pain.

              S.

I have the "official" bags and only use them to store the damage chits. When playing, I place the chits in opaque plastic cups. It makes drawing them out much easier.
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Michael Carter
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MayorJim wrote:
mlcarter815 wrote:
Doesn't taking the chits out of the bag and placing them on the ship mats change the probabilities for subsequent attacks?
Yes it does...but that's part of the game. Of course you could double the chits to help even out bad draws.


It seems pretty gamey for independent shots to affect later ones.
 
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Thanks for all your replies.

To be fair, even the "Firing High" rule that I complained about has a certain logic to it. A rudder hit is smashed wood, which translates to a smashed mast if firing high. Likewise a Leak hit is a hole in the hull, which translates to a hole in the sail when firing high. With those little mnemonics established I don't think I will have difficulty remembering.

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Susan Davis
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mlcarter815 wrote:
Doesn't taking the chits out of the bag and placing them on the ship mats change the probabilities for subsequent attacks?


There's a whole topic about this over on the Sails of Glory Anchorage forum. Many players put damage chits back in the bag after drawing, and put the extra chits on the ship mats, or replace the mats entirely with laminated cards and a grease pencil, or paper SSDs.

I do find the chit draw to be a lot faster than a roll or two (especially with percentile dice) and a lookup on a CRT and/or damage table.
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Martin Gallo
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The closest I have come to a "perfect solution" is to have an extra set of damage markers for every four ships in the fray. I use one set for drawing (only) and the rest for marking. Yes there are some extra markers but so what?

For up to eight ships just using two sets of markers works great (so one set per four ships, draw and play and have fun).
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Juan Suarez
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I also just ordered, and I was wondering about the damage chits (sorry if this goes slightly off topic regarding the original question on dice, but since the amount of chits and the probabilities have been mentioned, I thought this was relevant and rather than opening a new thread I decided to post it here).

I ordered two copies of the base game and several extra ships (I do like big battles). Since the damage chits seems to be balanced for four ships, should I get an extra set of damage chits per every 4 ships?

I have several mixed feelings/ideas about this at the moment:

a)If I get extra chits, the chances of having too many no damage shots or huge damage shots are increased (they might be an oddity, but won't having more chits of each type make this more possible?)

b)If I do not get extra chits, with every extra ship I include in a battle won't I be making the battles more deadly as the 0 damage chits get used? (this might be a good thing, since with many ships, I might otherwise run into very long battles)

c)If I use just one set of damage chits and then replace them on the cup/bag after drawing, am I not changing the balance of the game? (I am assuming that the intended removal of 0 damage chits is to even spread the damage in a certain way, I am no mathematician or game designer, so not sure how much this will affect the battles)

Has anyone experience on battles involving 10 ships per side or so, and how the use of different solutions explained before (more chits, one single set of chits and writing on paper as someone suggested... etc) affect the balance and length of the battles?
 
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Kris Van Beurden
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mlcarter815 wrote:
MayorJim wrote:
mlcarter815 wrote:
Doesn't taking the chits out of the bag and placing them on the ship mats change the probabilities for subsequent attacks?
Yes it does...but that's part of the game. Of course you could double the chits to help even out bad draws.


It seems pretty gamey for independent shots to affect later ones.


Early misses are shots to find the range? Those shots coming short or going long help to hit afterwards=n

Early hits make the gunners complacent?
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Tegarend wrote:
mlcarter815 wrote:
MayorJim wrote:
mlcarter815 wrote:
Doesn't taking the chits out of the bag and placing them on the ship mats change the probabilities for subsequent attacks?
Yes it does...but that's part of the game. Of course you could double the chits to help even out bad draws.


It seems pretty gamey for independent shots to affect later ones.


Early misses are shots to find the range? Those shots coming short or going long help to hit afterwards=n

Early hits make the gunners complacent?
Thats an excellent explanation!
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    Just play. You'll love it.

             S.
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Michael Carter
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Tegarend wrote:
mlcarter815 wrote:
MayorJim wrote:
mlcarter815 wrote:
Doesn't taking the chits out of the bag and placing them on the ship mats change the probabilities for subsequent attacks?
Yes it does...but that's part of the game. Of course you could double the chits to help even out bad draws.


It seems pretty gamey for independent shots to affect later ones.


Early misses are shots to find the range? Those shots coming short or going long help to hit afterwards=n

Early hits make the gunners complacent?


That makes sense for one ship, but it wouldn't make sense when looking multiple ships drawing out of the same bags. It's not like they had radio communications back then.
 
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Kris Van Beurden
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mlcarter815 wrote:
Tegarend wrote:
mlcarter815 wrote:
MayorJim wrote:
mlcarter815 wrote:
Doesn't taking the chits out of the bag and placing them on the ship mats change the probabilities for subsequent attacks?
Yes it does...but that's part of the game. Of course you could double the chits to help even out bad draws.


It seems pretty gamey for independent shots to affect later ones.


Early misses are shots to find the range? Those shots coming short or going long help to hit afterwards=n

Early hits make the gunners complacent?


That makes sense for one ship, but it wouldn't make sense when looking multiple ships drawing out of the same bags. It's not like they had radio communications back then.


I know, I know (I also didn't mention how you missing makes the opposition more likely to hit) - but no correlation is also gamey ...
 
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I read some of the more recent posts in this thread concerning 0 damage chits representing "ranging shots" or something, and felt I had to reply.

There is really no difference between a 0 damage chit and any other damage chit. They are effectively just misses. The "A" damage pool has twice as many 0 damage chits as the "B" damage pool, representing the fact it is harder to hit at long range. The 0 damage chits have to be retained on the target ship mat just like any other chit so as not to skew the damage result probabilities in the chit pool. A 0 damage chit can be expected to be pulled from the "A" pool about 40% of the time, and from the "B" pool about 20% of the time, from the very first one drawn right up to the last one, assuming the chits are well mixed. We should not think of the 0 damage chits as being different in any way to the other chits.
 
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Olle Nilsson
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I have just started to play the game, and I enjoy it quite a bit. It is a bit more complex than I had anticipated tough. (I begun with the advanced rules but couldn't really focus on actually moving the ships, but kept fiddling with the actions instead. Reload? Repair? Move the ammunition to the guns… and so on.) That being said, its a deeply thematic game with very nice components that feels just right.

But, when it comes to dice (and to the OP). Im really not sure I like the damagechits. They work fine and do seem to flow smooth in an actual game. BUT, I would so much prefer a handful of dice when I fire the canons! The idea of rolling a handful of dice does (imo) much better reflect the feel of firing a broadside. Come on, dice in a cup even sounds like you´re shooting! Much more satisfying than quietly tell your english enemy "Ok, you have to pull 4 chit from this bag, because i just hit your ship, jolly rotten luck old sport". That being said, hopeful Andrea and Ares could come up with a dice expansion of some sorts. That would be really great! Perhaps you could roll less dice when out of range, or perhaps use different dice. (Different ammo could have different dice maybe.) Of course, this would mean that you first roll the the dice, and then put the chit on your mat, a somewhat less than perfect system. But I´m sure Andrea and Ares could work something out. (Hint, hint!)

Or am I the only one? Come on - who wouldn't want to buy thematically looking broadside dice to make the battle really come alive!
 
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    I agree there is a visceral aspect to rolling dice that the chits lack. The chits work, but they don't let you bang your fist three times for good luck before throwing the bones.

    But -- you would have to record damage information with a pencil, and that's considered "fiddly" now. Not sure why.

             S.

 
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Well the chits work fine and are also used to compute damage etc....but you're right in that you don't get that visceral feeling of power when tossing dice whistle
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