Mac Mcleod
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So I was listening to conservative talk radio this morning (Laura Ingram) and she actually came down quite hard on the H1B issue.

The apparent story is here:
http://www.computerworld.com/article/2879083/southern-califo...

Seems to me that you can't logically say you need H1B visas since you can't get workers when you are laying off (hundreds of) workers and replacing them with workers on H1B visas. Also, the Infosys replacements will be paid roughly 2/3 the salary of the united states citizen workers they will be replacing.

According to Laura and the Union Rep she was interviewing, the current workers will be required to train their replacements in order to get severance pay and they will be required to sign an NDA in order to get the full amount of money.

Could be the conservative side is going to get active on this issue now too. With both sides active, we might see some of the H1B abuses reigned in. Hopefully the issue will become bipartisan.
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Sam I am
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Re: From conservative talk radio: Really grisly tail of employees laid off, forced to train their H1B replacements
der terkin er gerbs.
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Re: From conservative talk radio: Really grisly tail of employees laid off, forced to train their H1B replacements
rcbevco wrote:
der terkin er gerbs.


Gerbs isn't translating. "The left says gerbs".

They took our jobs?
 
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Re: From conservative talk radio: Really grisly tail of employees laid off, forced to train their H1B replacements
maxo-texas wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
der terkin er gerbs.


Gerbs isn't translating. "The left says gerbs".

They took our jobs?

South Park reference.
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Re: From conservative talk radio: Really grisly tail of employees laid off, forced to train their H1B replacements
All I can say is, what a bunch of wankers.
 
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Re: From conservative talk radio: Really grisly tail of employees laid off, forced to train their H1B replacements
slatersteven wrote:
All I can say is, what a bunch of wankers.

Welcome to America the land of opportunity (to work for less).
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Blorb Plorbst
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Re: From conservative talk radio: Really grisly tail of employees laid off, forced to train their H1B replacements
There is cause for what were once considered to be middle class jobs to unionize. It only takes the will.

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As has been said, many times, the real problem is not that H1Bs are not needed, but that the system is set up in such a way that abuse is easy, and companies that really need to hire a few people are seriously discouraged.

The expectation nowadays is that you have a whole couple of days to apply for an H1B for a prospective employeee, and then you have to wait six months to know if you won the H1B lottery, which makes your application be approved.

Guess what? A company that tries to get two thousand Indian programmers, and really is just hiring them to use for consulting is going to actually do OK in this situation. They don't even know which company they'll end up working for, because 6 months is a lot of months, but they don't care. In comparison, if I want one guy, I have to wait 6 months to maybe get him.

Remove the perverse incentives, and you'll still have a lot of immigrants going through the program, but less horrible examples like the one in the OP.

As far as the OP, it's a classic case of insourcing. A company lays off people, and hires consultants instead, which are treated differently in modern accounting standards. Accounting makes things bonkers. For instance, in my current employer, there are very few employees, and lots of consultants, many of which have been working in the same place for many years. In november, I was given a choice. Be an employee for X + benefits, or be a contractor for X + 80K, without benefits, still under a W2, but through a contracting company, which gets something like $20/hr for being HR and providing cover. Guess what? 80K is a lot more than getting my own equivalent benefits. So they are actually paying me more, because then my salary is an expense towards a capital project, instead of an operational expense.
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John W
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The shameful, illegal abuse of H-1 B visas by the collusion of business and government is one of the more blatantly anti-American business efforts of the past 10 years.

Manipulating laws and media to deliberately throw Americans out of their jobs, to solely benefit the corporation and the foreign contracting company, is something that is truly hard to believe could happen in America if one believed we had a free press.

I don't know of any American citizen who, given the details of H-1 B visa abuse, would support the businesses.
Ah, but most Americans DON'T know the details - just the propaganda that the businesses feed media outlets, and are parroted with no analysis.

Many "left" non-mainstream outlets have been covering this cut-and-dried abuse for over a decade, but this is one of the first times I've heard "right" media outlets even mentioning it.

I agree with the OP - it would be refreshing to see an actual consensus and active media outcry from both sides actually make a dent in the government/business cabal shushing this outrageous, unAmerican practice.
 
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Chris R.
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Bay Area tech company caught paying imported workers $1.21 per hour

http://www.engadget.com/2014/10/23/efi-underpaying-workers/?...
 
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So EFI was "caught red-handed by the U.S. Department of Labor" in an egregious labor violation.......... and they were "charged" $3,500 for the violations?

Koldfoot -
bullshit.
For the past 15 years, H-1B Visa abuse is a primarily LEFT issue, not right.
Before that, it was hardly even known on the public landscape.
In 1997, I was working for a company partially specializing in H-1B visas to recruit IT programmers, and virtually NOONE had heard of it.
 
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rcbevco wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
der terkin er gerbs.


Gerbs isn't translating. "The left says gerbs".

They took our jobs?

South Park reference.


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Doing a light check...

Dan Savage
no quotes on h1b's...(tons about gays).

Rush Limbaugh:
the number of legal immigrants that we're allowing in on the H1B visa of skilled and highly educated workers is really insufficient

And seems ignorant of how many people are coming in on H1B's and dismissive of increases.

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=...
Mainly included due to use of word "disingenuous".

Summary: Republicans consistently vote against immigration and for h1b increases.

 
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David desJardins
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Did Ingraham mention that House Republicans blocked the Senate immigration bill that contained significant H-1B reforms?
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Has there ever been any effort at all by Republicans in Congress to address this? The only Republican proposals that I know of generally make the H-1B system less restrictive and give employers more latitude, not less. Only Democrats have backed legislation to raise wages for H-1B workers, give them more freedom and independence from their employers, and generally use the program only for workers who are more capable.

To hear that this is a "conservative" issue is surprising to me, but I'm willing to look at examples of "conservatives" in Congress trying to address it, if there are any.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Did Ingraham mention that House Republicans blocked the Senate immigration bill that contained significant H-1B reforms?


No, but she was pretty outraged that it had reached the point where they were laying off united states workers to immediately replace them with H1B's and requiring the united states to train their replacements (to get any severance) and to sign an NDA to get their full severance. And that the H1B's were being compensated at a fraction of what the U.S. citizens were.

Up until now, they've been more clever than that.

Per koldfoot, this has been an issue for her for a while. But it's not getting much traction in the pro-business environment of the republican party.

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maxo-texas wrote:
Up until now, they've been more clever than that.


I don't think this is any different than stuff that has been going on for a while. People are always going to seek to exploit the system, and American workers are sometimes "overpaid" for the work they do relative to what other people around the world are willing to do the same work for, so businesses are always going to try to find ways to profit from that disparity. The main solution is to raise the skills of the workforce so that their higher cost is justified by greater productivity, but, as I have said all along, we should also try to have an immigration system that favors those who really have skills that benefit the US economy, not just those who will do the same work for less. That applies just as much to mediocre IT workers as it does to manual laborers.

Quote:
Per koldfoot, this has been an issue for her for a while. But it's not getting much traction in the pro-business environment of the republican party.


I still won't take her concern seriously unless she supports the efforts to do something about it, which so far have only been made by Democrats. Until then it seems disingenuous, an effort to advance a generic anti-immigrant agenda rather than to address the actual problem.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
Up until now, they've been more clever than that.


I don't think this is any different than stuff that has been going on for a while. People are always going to seek to exploit the system, and American workers are sometimes "overpaid" for the work they do relative to what other people around the world are willing to do the same work for, so businesses are always going to try to find ways to profit from that disparity. The main solution is to raise the skills of the workforce so that their higher cost is justified by greater productivity, but, as I have said all along, we should also try to have an immigration system that favors those who really have skills that benefit the US economy, not just those who will do the same work for less. That applies just as much to mediocre IT workers as it does to manual laborers.

Quote:
Per koldfoot, this has been an issue for her for a while. But it's not getting much traction in the pro-business environment of the republican party.


I still won't take her concern seriously unless she supports the efforts to do something about it, which so far have only been made by Democrats. Until then it seems disingenuous, an effort to advance a generic anti-immigrant agenda rather than to address the actual problem.


For what it's worth- while I was listening to her, I didn't get one bit of anti-immigrant vibe off of that segment. Heck, she was fully engaged and polite with a california union guy talking about it.

However- anti-immigration is apparently her schtick so perhaps so.
 
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"science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) fields. Consistent with other research, the findings show that the country has more than twice as many workers with STEM degrees as there are STEM jobs.

...In total, 1.6 million immigrants with STEM degrees worked outside of a STEM field and 563,000 were not working. ...

If STEM workers are in short supply, wages should be increasing rapidly. But wage data from multiple sources show little growth over the last 12 years.

Real hourly wages (adjusted for inflation) grew on average just 0.7 percent a year from 2000 to 2012 for STEM workers, and annual wages grew even less -- 0.4 percent a year. Wage growth is very modest for most subcategories of engineers and technology workers."

http://www.cis.org/no-stem-shortage
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And that's what happens when people run some stats without actually understanding what they are working on.

Yes, there isn't much of a shortage for entry level programmers: Kids still graduate from University. Now, whether they actually are prepared to actually do something that resembles a job is another matter.

The big shortage is in experienced people that can actually do the job. My current employer has something like 3% of candidates pass the interview, and I've been through it: It's not a bunch of gotchas, but a pretty good picture of whether you could do your job after a bit of training or not. Similar numbers have been reported by other former employers. Good people can find a new job in a week, so a shortage we've got.

Now, if you want to talk about the people that leave their field, we really see a lot of that, and it's typically women. At best, they tend to be redirected to become DBAs or testers, if not leave the field altogether. I've worked in teams of 15+ with no women.

So maybe those of you that hate immigrants should be demanding that we avoid discrimination in the workplace, because maybe we are doing women a big disservice today.

That's what Chris meant, right? That we should fight sexual discrimination in STEM?

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Quote:
For one thing, wages have grown relatively fast in most STEM-oriented occupations, which is a clear indication of a shortage. From 2000 to 2013, analyzing Bureau of Labor Statistics data and adjusting for inflation, median salaries for workers in computer and mathematical, health care practitioner, engineering, and science occupations rose 8 percent, 7 percent, 6 percent and 5 percent respectively, even as those for the average U.S. worker showed no growth. Software developers, for instance, saw salaries soar 26 percent over the same period, culminating in an average of $82,000 in 2013, up from $48,000 in 1980. More broadly, an analysis I completed earlier this summer for the Brookings Institution of census data showed a large relative increase in the STEM earnings premium – about 60 percent – from 1980 to 2012, controlling for education, experience and gender.

In addition, vacancies for STEM jobs are going unfilled in large numbers. My recent report analyzes this phenomenon using a rich database with millions of vacancies posted on company websites compiled by Burning Glass, a labor market analytics firm. There are some 40,000 computer science bachelor’s degree earners each year but roughly 4 million job vacancies for computer workers. In all, the median duration of advertising for STEM vacancies is more than twice that of those in other fields.
 
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And this squares with laying off over 500 stem workers and replacing them with h1b visas how???

there are talking points and at the end of the day there is reality.

all the bullshit blathering in the world doesn't contradict reality which in this case lo oks flat out illegal by any standard.

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If STEM workers are in short supply, wages should be increasing rapidly. But wage data from multiple sources show little growth over the last 12 years.

This is a common fallacy. It's based on the same misconception as the other quotes, that "STEM workers" or "STEM degree holders" are all identical and interchangeable.

The problem is that it's quite arbitrary to decide who is a "STEM worker" and what is a "STEM job". In employment surveys, people get to self-report their occupations. And, similarly, employer surveys are based on rather arbitrary categorization of the work that people do.

Over time, as society becomes more technological, more and more jobs are "STEM jobs" and more and more workers call themselves "STEM workers". But that by itself should not be expected to increase their wages---their wages only go up if they have actual, valuable skills. If someone was a good plumber, and they become a mediocre IT technician, you wouldn't necessarily expect this to raise their wages, right? As more people move into "STEM" occupations, even though their actual skills are very limited, that trend actually drags down average wages for "STEM jobs".

Even among CS graduates, there is an enormous variation in skills and value of those workers. And if you look at what counts as a "STEM degree" you'll see that many of those degrees have very little value and the people who get them know almost nothing that would make them valuable to an employer. So one should not be the least bit surprised that their wages are not surging. Just printing a diploma and handing it to someone doesn't make their labor worth any more than before.

There's a shortage of "talented STEM workers". And wages for "talented STEM workers" are high and rising steadily. The "average STEM worker" is being left behind, just as is the "average non-STEM worker". Calling someone a STEM worker doesn't make them wealthy. Only giving them actual, valuable skills can do that.
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Aye, and even among STEM workers you may have a very difficult and arcane skill which just isn't in demand while someone else randomly has experience with the current new hot technology (that isn't all that difficult- like say "SAP" where training was expensive and restricted to customers employees for a long time which artificially constraints that sub market).
 
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maxo-texas wrote:
Aye, and even among STEM workers you may have a very difficult and arcane skill which just isn't in demand while someone else randomly has experience with the current new hot technology.


I don't think it's "random". It's got to be highly correlated with age. It varies by person, but generally, as people get older, they have more difficulty learning new things. In historically significant occupations, people often developed expertise and judgment over time that made them more valuable. But, in a rapidly changing technological environment, expectations are reversed, and it's often the young people who are more valuable, while older workers, who are only familiar with outdated technologies and who have more trouble adapting to new technologies, may be less valuable than the younger workers. Yet the employment system is set up to assume that workers start with lower wages and then rise up the ladder over time.

There's essentially no young people who just "randomly" have the wrong knowledge. There are some who may not be smart enough to do the job, but the ones who are can all learn what they need to know. But there can be quite a few relatively smart people who are toward the ends of their careers and who find that their skills are no longer much in demand and they are not really prepared to develop new ones. I know people like that.

I am not sure what to do about it. But it can still be very much true that there are real shortages of STEM workers and there are also lots of unemployed or underemployed and unemployable STEM workers. I don't think it's really practical to take those aging workers who don't have current skills and have them do the work that is most in demand. Most of them are simply never going to be very good at that, even with training. And the economics of human capital development are much less favorable for someone with 5 or 10 years left in their career, than someone with 40 years ahead of them.
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