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Subject: Fakirs? Really? rss

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Gian Marco Guiducci
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Hey guys, look what I found in the translated rules for the upcoming italian edition
http://site.asterionpress.com/giochi/fivetribes/5Tribes_rule...
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Mike Cooper
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Yeah. They'll park in a handicap spot when we all know they're perfectly capable of walking from anywhere in the parking lot.
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Gláucio Reis
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I don't see what's so funny or wrong with fakirs. But it's interesting that the publisher apparently listened to an oversensitive vocal minority and turned the slaves into fakirs. Notice that the card even has new art, it's not just the name. That makes me curious to know if the change will also be in future editions from Days of Wonder.
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Arthur Cormode
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GSReis wrote:
I don't see what's so funny or wrong with fakirs. But it's interesting that the publisher apparently listened to an oversensitive vocal minority and turned the slaves into fakirs. Notice that the card even has new art, it's not just the name. That makes me curious to know if the change will also be in future editions from Days of Wonder.


The squeaky wheel gets the grease, as they say.
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James
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GSReis wrote:
it's interesting that the publisher apparently listened to an oversensitive vocal minority and turned the slaves into fakirs.


Or they just realized that the potentially offensive choice to put slaves into a completely pasted-on theme was pointless, and chose to do otherwise, knowing full well that the actual game experience wouldn't change one iota.

I bought the original game, and I enjoy it, but I certainly hope Days of Wonder reverses their stance and uses the new art / name for future releases. There's nothing to lose, and plenty to gain, by being a little bit more sensitive to things that might bother people, even if you yourself aren't bothered by it.

I personally AM bothered by it - not enough to stop me from playing the game obviously, but enough that I'm less likely to bring it out with random groups at a game meetup - especially with more casual gamers, just because I don't want to be that guy who brought the slave game. A more palatable thematic adjustment would certainly be more appealing to me.
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Arthur Cormode
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eviljelloman wrote:
GSReis wrote:
it's interesting that the publisher apparently listened to an oversensitive vocal minority and turned the slaves into fakirs.


Or they just realized that the potentially offensive choice to put slaves into a completely pasted-on theme was pointless, and chose to do otherwise, knowing full well that the actual game experience wouldn't change one iota.

I bought the original game, and I enjoy it, but I certainly hope Days of Wonder reverses their stance and uses the new art / name for future releases. There's nothing to lose, and plenty to gain, by being a little bit more sensitive to things that might bother people, even if you yourself aren't bothered by it.

I personally AM bothered by it - not enough to stop me from playing the game obviously, but enough that I'm less likely to bring it out with random groups at a game meetup - especially with more casual gamers, just because I don't want to be that guy who brought the slave game. A more palatable thematic adjustment would certainly be more appealing to me.


Yup. A depiction of people that have been enslaved which was thematically appropriate for the time period. *Shock* *Gasp* *Outrage!*

People being assassinated. *crickets chirping*

I guess murder is somehow more socially acceptable. Well, I don't know about you but I'd much rather be enslaved than murdered to be totally honest.

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James
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Thormodr wrote:
eviljelloman wrote:
GSReis wrote:
it's interesting that the publisher apparently listened to an oversensitive vocal minority and turned the slaves into fakirs.


Or they just realized that the potentially offensive choice to put slaves into a completely pasted-on theme was pointless, and chose to do otherwise, knowing full well that the actual game experience wouldn't change one iota.

I bought the original game, and I enjoy it, but I certainly hope Days of Wonder reverses their stance and uses the new art / name for future releases. There's nothing to lose, and plenty to gain, by being a little bit more sensitive to things that might bother people, even if you yourself aren't bothered by it.

I personally AM bothered by it - not enough to stop me from playing the game obviously, but enough that I'm less likely to bring it out with random groups at a game meetup - especially with more casual gamers, just because I don't want to be that guy who brought the slave game. A more palatable thematic adjustment would certainly be more appealing to me.


Yup. A depiction of people that have been enslaved which was thematically appropriate for the time period. *Shock* *Gasp* *Outrage!*

People being assassinated. *crickets chirping*

I guess murder is somehow more socially acceptable. Well, I don't know about you but I'd much rather be enslaved than murdered to be totally honest.



Yes, yes, the same tired argument that gets drawn out every single time this topic is brought up. Anyone who has differing opinions from you about what thematic topics bother them is an oversensitive nancy, and worthy of derision. We get it.

The choice still bugs a lot of people. The reasons have been pretty eloquently described many, many times by people who are far better writers than me.

It also never sways people who are so myopic as to ignore any sort of subtleties or social context and try to draw false parallels. So do we really need to go around in circles on this once again?

You can think I'm an oversensitive whiner (despite the fact that I both purchased and enjoyed the game), but I'm then just as entitled to think that you're acting like a dismissive jerk.
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Arthur Cormode
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eviljelloman wrote:
Thormodr wrote:
eviljelloman wrote:
GSReis wrote:
it's interesting that the publisher apparently listened to an oversensitive vocal minority and turned the slaves into fakirs.


Or they just realized that the potentially offensive choice to put slaves into a completely pasted-on theme was pointless, and chose to do otherwise, knowing full well that the actual game experience wouldn't change one iota.

I bought the original game, and I enjoy it, but I certainly hope Days of Wonder reverses their stance and uses the new art / name for future releases. There's nothing to lose, and plenty to gain, by being a little bit more sensitive to things that might bother people, even if you yourself aren't bothered by it.

I personally AM bothered by it - not enough to stop me from playing the game obviously, but enough that I'm less likely to bring it out with random groups at a game meetup - especially with more casual gamers, just because I don't want to be that guy who brought the slave game. A more palatable thematic adjustment would certainly be more appealing to me.


Yup. A depiction of people that have been enslaved which was thematically appropriate for the time period. *Shock* *Gasp* *Outrage!*

People being assassinated. *crickets chirping*

I guess murder is somehow more socially acceptable. Well, I don't know about you but I'd much rather be enslaved than murdered to be totally honest.



Yes, yes, the same tired argument that gets drawn out every single time this topic is brought up. *snip*


Agree 100%.
 
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James
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Ah, see, there's that dismissive attitude again. Even the OP is being dismissive at the very idea that the designers chose to replace one pasted-on thematic element which offended some people with another pasted-on thematic element which did not offend people.

It's apparently your right to think everyone who finds offense in the topic is worthy of your derision, but not in any way ok for anyone to think that the choice to put slaves in a game is worthy of derision.

Again, let's step back a moment here - I didn't inject the slave topic into some unrelated conversation. I brought up the dissenting opinion in yet another BGG "you people are just too sensitive" anti-PC circlejerk. So if you agree 100% that the discussion is tired, why did you post in it in the first place? Just to dump on people who have different opinions than you?

A game company made a choice to make a game a bit more inclusive and welcoming to people who were bothered by an aspect of that game - and that's such a HORRIBLE thing that it's met with sarcasm and disgust. Seriously? For as much as you people like to paint people who were offended by the slaves as whiny and oversensitive, you're so anxious to defend the choice that you're actually acting offended at the REMOVAL of the cards. If they were so harmless in the first place, what the heck is the harm of switching them out for something else? Does it detract from the game in any way to not have slaves there any more?

You keep saying nobody has any valid reason to be upset by the inclusion of slaves in the game - so how is it any more valid to criticize the decision to remove them?
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Arthur Cormode
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I'm not being dismissive at all. Everyone has free will and has their own opinions. I won't tell anyone what to do or think.

However, I do ask people to be consistent. If slavery is wrong then why conveniently ignore outright murder? That smacks of hypocrisy of the first order.
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Nicholas Hjelmberg
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Thormodr wrote:
However, I do ask people to be consistent. If slavery is wrong then why conveniently ignore outright murder? That smacks of hypocrisy of the first order.


I fully concur but asking people to be consistent is asking too much. There will always be people who accept one thing but not the other. Other great crimes against mankind were committed by Nazi and Communist regimes but you seldom see people complaining about them in games.

Nevertheless, I would applaud a decision to replace the slaves, not because such a decision would erase slavery from history (which it wouldn't) but because it would deter less people and allow more people to discover this beautiful game.
 
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Martin Larouche
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Aaaaand this is turning into another debate that'll get locked... shake
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James
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deedob wrote:
Aaaaand this is turning into another debate that'll get locked... shake


That was pretty much a given when OP posted a thread complaining that a company chose to make a game more inclusive and eliminate unnecessary pasted-on potentially offensive elements. The thread was started with derision toward anyone who was bothered by the inclusion of slaves. It was only going to go downhill from there.
 
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Arthur Cormode
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guineapig wrote:
Hey guys, look what I found in the translated rules for the upcoming italian edition
http://site.asterionpress.com/giochi/fivetribes/5Tribes_rule...


Strange. I don't see any derision or complaining about the company's actions.

I see someone stating they've found something and then provided a link for it. Pretty straightforward there.

Looks like someone with an axe to grind is reading something into something that clearly isn't there.
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Mike Collins
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Thormodr wrote:

Looks like someone with an axe to grind is reading something into something that clearly isn't there.

If you don't think that thread title is designed to be at least a little derisive about the decision, then I suspect your reading comprehension skills require a little improvement.

Of course, what's more likely is that you're being disingenuous, just so that you can continue to needle people who disagree with you about the issue.
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Arthur Cormode
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Mikey Boy wrote:
Thormodr wrote:

Looks like someone with an axe to grind is reading something into something that clearly isn't there.

If you don't think that thread title is designed to be at least a little derisive about the decision, then I suspect your reading comprehension skills require a little improvement.

Of course, what's more likely is that you're being disingenuous, just so that you can continue to needle people who disagree with you about the issue.


Not at all.

Quote:
Fakirs? Really?


Can you read any emotion into this?

Then the Op states that they have changed slaves to fakirs in the Italian version and uses a big smiley emoticon. Seems like he was happy with the decision.

Now, if he used a wow, , surprise, cry, whistle, yuk or shake emoticon then I could see your point.
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Mike Collins
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Thormodr wrote:

Not at all.

Quote:
Fakirs? Really?


Can you read any emotion into this?

In modern conversational English, the construction "X? Really?" is almost always used to express disappointment, disdain and/or disgust.

It's possible you're not socially engaged enough to be aware of this particular figure of speech and how it's used these days, but given the way you're carefully line-dancing in the tone and content of your responses to others with whom you disagree, I'm going to go with my original guess that you're being disingenuous. Have fun with that.
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Arthur Cormode
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Mikey Boy wrote:
Thormodr wrote:

Not at all.

Quote:
Fakirs? Really?


Can you read any emotion into this?

In modern conversational English, the construction "X? Really?" is almost always used to express disappointment, disdain and/or disgust.

*Snip: Sarcastic and insulting diatribe removed* .


Father talking to daughter: A pony is arriving tomorrow.

Daughter talking to her father: A pony? Really?

The daughter in the example is not expressing disappointment, disdain or disgust. In fact, she is expressing happiness/excitement.

Seems you want to see what you want to see.
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I guess I do not understand the change. Aren't we still buying people who are sacrificed, sold for money, and/or forced into manual labor? It seems like a weak attempt to call a spade something else.
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Arthur Cormode
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OmegaDestroyer wrote:
I guess I do not understand the change. Aren't we still buying people who are sacrificed, sold for money, and/or forced into manual labor? It seems like a weak attempt to call a spade something else.


Indeed. Fakirs are essentially beggars.

In the sanitized second edition, you'll be able to purchase beggars in the marketplace and then do with them as you will.

It's still human trafficking but I have the feeling that all the people that were outraged by the slave cards won't be upset by the alternate form of human trafficking.
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Thormodr wrote:

Indeed. Fakirs are essentially beggars.

In the sanitized second edition, you'll be able to purchase beggars in the marketplace and then do with them as you will.

It's still human trafficking but I have the feeling that all the people that were outraged by the slave cards won't be upset by the alternate form of human trafficking.


Sure, it is no different mechanically, but by making them Fakirs (as opposed to slaves) the players are presumably hiring them, not buying them.
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Gian Marco Guiducci
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eviljelloman wrote:
deedob wrote:
Aaaaand this is turning into another debate that'll get locked... shake


That was pretty much a given when OP posted a thread complaining that a company chose to make a game more inclusive and eliminate unnecessary pasted-on potentially offensive elements. The thread was started with derision toward anyone who was bothered by the inclusion of slaves. It was only going to go downhill from there.


Sarcasm, do you know it?
I wasn't derisive of who is concerned on the slavery issue. I was derisive of the whole situation and the public uprising.
And the thread title is a reference to the closed thread about it. (There seems to be another thread about sleeving the cards, titled "Sleeves? Really?", so, what about that one?)

Thormodr wrote:
Strange. I don't see any derision or complaining about the company's actions.

I see someone stating they've found something and then provided a link for it. Pretty straightforward there.

Spot on.
 
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Gian Marco Guiducci
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jmoline wrote:
Sure, it is no different mechanically, but by making them Fakirs (as opposed to slaves) the players are presumably hiring them, not buying them.

Or you are freeing them from their beds of nails.
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jmoline wrote:
Sure, it is no different mechanically, but by making them Fakirs (as opposed to slaves) the players are presumably hiring them, not buying them.


Sometimes, hiring and buying are interchangeable terms. Does it make it better that you're merely preying on their need rather than outright exchanging currency for them? Perhaps, but I'm guessing it's still at least a little wrong according to modern sensibilities.
 
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