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Subject: International Edition rules question rss

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Wilhelm Fitzpatrick
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We played our first game of Die Macher last night using the new international edition. Afterwards, I read through the most recent (German) FAQ available here (which obviously predates the IE), and have the following rules questions:

1) When setting up a new state board after an election, does each party get a free meeting market in the new state? The international edition rules basically say "do it like the initial setup" (which implies free meeting marker) but one of the answers in the FAQ implies no free meeting marker.

2) During the party platform phase, is the sequence:
a) draw to three. discard cards. draw back to three (as implied in the new english rules) or
b) discard cards. draw up to three (as stated in the FAQ)

3) When scoring an election, must a player have at least 5 remaining party markers in the state in order to convert any to votes? Or does the 5 minimum only apply to non-election states?

4) Is the national board supposed to be able to hold 7 or 14 media markers? The track is horizontally divided into 7 spaces, which are then each subdivided vertically by a thinner line, and each section (top and bottom) contains a media icon. Is this supposed to indicated that each rank (1 through 7) can contain two media markers, or is this simply a graphic design freakout?

5) Can a shadow cabinet media action be used to simply PLACE, rather than REPLACE a media marker, if there is an open slot in the state in question?
 
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Brad Miller
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rafial wrote:
We played our first game of Die Macher last night using the new international edition. Afterwards, I read through the most recent (German) FAQ available here (which obviously predates the IE), and have the following rules questions:

1) When setting up a new state board after an election, does each party get a free meeting market in the new state? The international edition rules basically say "do it like the initial setup" (which implies free meeting marker) but one of the answers in the FAQ implies no free meeting marker.



That's the topic of some debate. Looks like a rule change to me, or an oversight on the part of Valley Games. I'd love a definative answer from someone, (other than just some random geek).

rafial wrote:

4) Is the national board supposed to be able to hold 7 or 14 media markers? The track is horizontally divided into 7 spaces, which are then each subdivided vertically by a thinner line, and each section (top and bottom) contains a media icon. Is this supposed to indicated that each rank (1 through 7) can contain two media markers, or is this simply a graphic design freakout?


They can hold two because of the possibilty of a coalition win, in which both members get to place a media marker.

Can't say on the others
 
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Frank Teplin
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I'll do my best.

Quote:
1) When setting up a new state board after an election, does each party get a free meeting market in the new state? The international edition rules basically say "do it like the initial setup" (which implies free meeting marker) but one of the answers in the FAQ implies no free meeting marker.

Yes. You get a free meeting marker in each new region.

Quote:
2) During the party platform phase, is the sequence:
a) draw to three. discard cards. draw back to three (as implied in the new english rules) or
b) discard cards. draw up to three (as stated in the FAQ)

This one I'm unsure on. The new English rules do indeed seem to imply that "a" is correct.

Quote:
3) When scoring an election, must a player have at least 5 remaining party markers in the state in order to convert any to votes? Or does the 5 minimum only apply to non-election states?

When scoring the current region election, all a player's party markers get converted into votes. The 5 minimum only applies to the other states.

Quote:
4) Is the national board supposed to be able to hold 7 or 14 media markers? The track is horizontally divided into 7 spaces, which are then each subdivided vertically by a thinner line, and each section (top and bottom) contains a media icon. Is this supposed to indicated that each rank (1 through 7) can contain two media markers, or is this simply a graphic design freakout?

When a coalition victory or victory by a nose happens, two parties may end up putting their media markers on the national board. That is why there is room for 14, two for each election.

Quote:
5) Can a shadow cabinet media action be used to simply PLACE, rather than REPLACE a media marker, if there is an open slot in the state in question?

The way the shadow cabinet actions work are pretty specifically spelled out, so I would say NO, you must use the shadow cabinet card to replace another player's media marker. If you simply want to place a marker, you must wait until Media Influence.

Edit: fixed error.
 
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Wilhelm Fitzpatrick
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Quote:

When a coalition victory or victory by a nose happens, two parties may end up putting their media markers on the national board. That is why there is room for 14, two for each election.


Omigosh! Now that I go back and reread the rule, I can see that's what's implied, but I would never have got that myself. Okay. That makes sense. the numbered horizontal spaces are ROUNDS. And I guess it could be up to FOUR media markers in a round, based on the example in the FAQ where their are two coalitions, and one wins by a nose, so that four people wind up getting to place markers.

Thanks for the clarity!
 
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Brad Miller
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Frank,

The Valley games rules state that you reset the new state board as described in 5.2.1, which says that you do put one meeting marker in the space. It appears to be a rule change. You are the "random geek", (but don't take that the wrong way, no offence intended), that I was referring to. There is another thread where this goes back and forth. No "official" answers yet however.
 
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Frank Teplin
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Windopaene wrote:
Frank,

The Valley games rules state that you reset the new state board as described in 5.2.1, which says that you do put one meeting marker in the space. It appears to be a rule change. You are the "random geek", (but don't take that the wrong way, no offence intended), that I was referring to. There is another thread where this goes back and forth. No "official" answers yet however.

Hmm, upon checking the new rules, you're absolutely right. I was basing my comment on previous rules and FAQ's I had read.
 
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Brad Miller
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Yes, it's a bummer. I HATE rule changes!

I've been trying to see what the change/harm/benefit would be to the overall flow of the game.
 
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Kevin Nesbitt
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Quote:
1) When setting up a new state board after an election, does each party get a free meeting market in the new state? The international edition rules basically say "do it like the initial setup" (which implies free meeting marker) but one of the answers in the FAQ implies no free meeting marker.

2) During the party platform phase, is the sequence:
a) draw to three. discard cards. draw back to three (as implied in the new english rules) or
b) discard cards. draw up to three (as stated in the FAQ)


I'm going to have these issues addressed ASAP. This will probably take the form of a new FAQ, but I'll know more about this by next week.

If any BGG users have questions that they would like to see addressed in the FAQ, please either post them here, or message them to me here on BGG (or do both!).

I would prefer questions that are not specifically answered in the rule book (i.e. questions about "ambiguous" rules).

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Jeroen Harkes
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fteplin wrote:

Quote:
4) Is the national board supposed to be able to hold 7 or 14 media markers? The track is horizontally divided into 7 spaces, which are then each subdivided vertically by a thinner line, and each section (top and bottom) contains a media icon. Is this supposed to indicated that each rank (1 through 7) can contain two media markers, or is this simply a graphic design freakout?

When a coalition victory or victory by a nose happens, two parties may end up putting their media markers on the national board. That is why there is room for 14, two for each election.


It's even possible (acording to the rules clarification in the old faq) to have a victory by a nose with more then two players involved, then there could be more than two markers in the box.

Windopaene wrote:
Yes, it's a bummer. I HATE rule changes!


Especially when they feel so wrong. [edit: not so very wrong any more, see next post]

Quote:
've been trying to see what the change/harm/benefit would be to the overall flow of the game.


There are only five spots so in a five player game '6.2.5 Buying Media Markers' is impossible.
Was a bit sleepy (middle of the night, jumping to the wrong conclusions).

It gives each player half a point (if I recall correctly), this doesn't matter much.
Altough it raises the question what to do when one runs out of meeting markers, do you have to take it from an other board? don't you place it?



Has anyone compared the new german rules to the new english rules, or the old german rules? These things seem like bad translation errors. (Similar to the ones in the 2nd ed. english translation of the german rules)
 
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Brad Miller
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Meeting markers, not Media markers...
 
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Michael Webb
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Windopaene wrote:
Frank,

The Valley games rules state that you reset the new state board as described in 5.2.1, which says that you do put one meeting marker in the space. It appears to be a rule change. You are the "random geek", (but don't take that the wrong way, no offence intended), that I was referring to. There is another thread where this goes back and forth. No "official" answers yet however.


It's interesting that this has come up, as it made me go back and re-read my 2nd edition rules.

In the English translation of the 2nd it says "return all markers to their starting positions". Given this line, I have always played that each player always starts with 1 marker in the region. This is the only way I have ever heard of playing it. The starting marker is important because it allows players to buy their 4 meeting marker allotment and start converting them into votes immediately.
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Brad Miller
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Yes, but Chris, right above you, appears to vehemently disagree.

And if you look though some of the pictures for the game, (mostly older ones), you will see later round states set up with no meeting markers in them...
 
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Rik Falch
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rafial wrote:
We played our first game of Die Macher last night using the new international edition. Afterwards, I read through the most recent (German) FAQ available here (which obviously predates the IE), and have the following rules questions:

1) When setting up a new state board after an election, does each party get a free meeting market in the new state? The international edition rules basically say "do it like the initial setup" (which implies free meeting marker) but one of the answers in the FAQ implies no free meeting marker.


A new cube goes on each state as well. These major parties always have some influence in the various states in Germany and this is to reflect this.

rafial wrote:
2) During the party platform phase, is the sequence:
a) draw to three. discard cards. draw back to three (as implied in the new english rules) or
b) discard cards. draw up to three (as stated in the FAQ)


a) is correct. We realized we missed this clarification in the rules virtually half an hour after committing to the proofs. Oops.

rafial wrote:
3) When scoring an election, must a player have at least 5 remaining party markers in the state in order to convert any to votes? Or does the 5 minimum only apply to non-election states?


No, the minimum 5 markers only applies to converting markers into votes NOT scoring current electoral state.

rafial wrote:
4) Is the national board supposed to be able to hold 7 or 14 media markers? The track is horizontally divided into 7 spaces, which are then each subdivided vertically by a thinner line, and each section (top and bottom) contains a media icon. Is this supposed to indicated that each rank (1 through 7) can contain two media markers, or is this simply a graphic design freakout?


There are 14 spots because in the case of a win by a coalition, both parties may place media markers.

rafial wrote:
5) Can a shadow cabinet media action be used to simply PLACE, rather than REPLACE a media marker, if there is an open slot in the state in question?


NO. A shadow cabinet card can only REPLACE a marker, not place.
 
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Brad Miller
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Guess I don't see how one additional marker makes it a "freebie". Before, you had three rounds to place 5 markers, and now you have 3 to place 4. So before you had to take two rounds of placement, (1 and then 4), and now it only will take one, (a 4). Doesn't seem like all that drastic a change.

Thanks for the "official" clarification Rik.
 
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Michael Webb
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Liumas wrote:
Wow. 2 official rules changes.

Thanks for the speedy post, Rik!

The new extra free meeting marker is particularly odd, since the rule is changed from all prior editions, but the wording is exactly the same. ?? The prior editions made you have to work the future boards ahead of time (during regular turns, and/or in the prelimnary option choices) in order to prematurely convert mtg markers to votes, now getting the 5 minimum is practically a freebie.



I guess I don't understand your logic here.

In the initial setup you have a meeting marker at each location, that has never been in dispute AFAIK (of course, I was unaware that people were playing without the 1 meeting marker starting position on each board as well...). This means that on any "buy meeting markers" phase, a player can buy 4 pieces, and then will have the option of converting 1 or more of those markers that round. Players do not have to commit any resources beyond the 4000 required for the 4 pieces to be up to 5 meeting markers on any of those 4 boards. Do you strongly feel that this ruins the initial 4 elections or dumbs them down in some way vis a vis 5/6/7 with your interpretation of the rules?

Now, with your interpretation of the 2nd edition rules starting with board 5, a player would have to commit at least 1 meeting marker on one round, and then more on the next in order to get up to 5 pieces. There is no way to place meeting markers on these board "ahead of time" with the initial seeding, and there is no way to put more meeting markers there with shadow cabinet cards. It is simply a rule that would delay you from getting votes from anything other than outright purchase via shadow cabinet. The only real meaningful effect I can see on the game is that players who want to buy a few votes with a SC card are going to have a higher liklihood of pulling off an absolute majority for a round.

I don't really care either way because we'll probably never play the game together, and my groups have always played with the "each region starts with 1 guy in it" rule, but I find it strange that you think having that piece there greatly affects the softness of the game...all it does is make the rules consistent, each region starts out exactly the same way throughout the course of the game.


In terms of the cards, it is a softening of the rules, but I think I might like that as well. I still think I would prefer the 1st edition, purely deterministic issue changes, but the Valley Games attempt here is at least worthy, because it will decrease the random nature of the card deck and make it more likely that players can change their platform instead of being hamstrung by the deck. Again, personal preference. I will probably still play with the original 2nd edition rule because it is cleaner, and my groups are used to it, but I can see the value of the new rule, as it should increase player control of the game, which is never a bad thing IMO.
 
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Mark Bigney
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It is indeed impossible to please everyone. The Valley Games version is simultaneously criticized for being too stingy vis-a-vis cards on the exchange board, and too generous vis-a-vis cards in your hand. To each their own.
 
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Chris Malme
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rafial wrote:

Omigosh! Now that I go back and reread the rule, I can see that's what's implied, but I would never have got that myself. Okay. That makes sense. the numbered horizontal spaces are ROUNDS. And I guess it could be up to FOUR media markers in a round, based on the example in the FAQ where their are two coalitions, and one wins by a nose, so that four people wind up getting to place markers.


No, because in the case of a victory by coalition, even by a nose, "the coalition or party that lost 'by a nose' receives no benefits."
 
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