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Subject: Order question rss

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Sergio Saavedra
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The distribution of order disk is not very clear to me.

In a 4 players game, if I take the #4 quest and another player takes the #3 quest and the other 2 players don't have the specific color to take the #1 or #2, How the order disks are distributed?
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It is pretty clear in the rules. Players who complete quests take the number of quest shown on the quest. Players who do not take a quest will divide the remaining order discs in the same order they had in the current round. The player who was ahead takes the highest number token.

Basically, since you have to do it in player order anyway, the player who took the incomplete quest tile takes the highest numbered remaining order token.
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alex dhs
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In the rules it is not written that players take the token which is the same number as their quest. It is written that they take the tokens with the smallest numbers.
The player who chose quest #3 gets token #1 and the player who chose quest #4 gets token #2.
Then the rulebook says that players who have incomplete quest automatically take the highest number tokens, #3 and #4 in your example.
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reloadead wrote:
In the rules it is not written that players take the token which is the same number as their quest. It is written that they take the tokens with the smallest numbers.
The player who chose quest #3 gets token #1 and the player who chose quest #4 gets token #2.
Then the rulebook says that players who have incomplete quest automatically take the highest number tokens, #3 and #4 in your example.


You are mistaken and this is perfectly clear in the rules.

Under "Allocate order of play Discs" it says:

"First, reallocate the Discs according to the Quests taken by the players in Phase II. The player with Quest #1 receives Disc #1, and so on."

It is only after that when Incomplete Quests players will get their discs based on the highest-first order.
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Brett J. Gilbert
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Slashdoctor wrote:
reloadead wrote:
In the rules it is not written that players take the token which is the same number as their quest. It is written that they take the tokens with the smallest numbers.
The player who chose quest #3 gets token #1 and the player who chose quest #4 gets token #2.
Then the rulebook says that players who have incomplete quest automatically take the highest number tokens, #3 and #4 in your example.


You are mistaken and this is perfectly clear in the rules.

Under "Allocate order of play Discs" it says:

"First, reallocate the Discs according to the Quests taken by the players in Phase II. The player with Quest #1 receives Disc #1, and so on."

It is only after that when Incomplete Quests players will get their discs based on the highest-first order.


User reloadead is perfectly correct. The example (repeated below) in the rules explains how the presence of any incomplete Quests creates an exception - a logical one, I think - to the usual order of things:

"Example: In the current Epoch of a 4-player game, Sebastian has Disc #1 and Christopher has Disc #3. Both of these players took Incomplete Quests. When the Discs are reallocated, Sebastian receives Disc #3 and Christopher receives Disc #4."

So, if a single player in a 4-player game takes an incomplete Quest, that player always receives the '4' turn order disc, regardless of the disc he had. A player can never gain an advantage in turn order if they take an incomplete Quest.
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55cards wrote:
Slashdoctor wrote:
reloadead wrote:
In the rules it is not written that players take the token which is the same number as their quest. It is written that they take the tokens with the smallest numbers.
The player who chose quest #3 gets token #1 and the player who chose quest #4 gets token #2.
Then the rulebook says that players who have incomplete quest automatically take the highest number tokens, #3 and #4 in your example.


You are mistaken and this is perfectly clear in the rules.

Under "Allocate order of play Discs" it says:

"First, reallocate the Discs according to the Quests taken by the players in Phase II. The player with Quest #1 receives Disc #1, and so on."

It is only after that when Incomplete Quests players will get their discs based on the highest-first order.


User reloadead is perfectly correct. The example (repeated below) in the rules explains how the presence of any incomplete Quests creates an exception - a logical one, I think - to the usual order of things:

"Example: In the current Epoch of a 4-player game, Sebastian has Disc #1 and Christopher has Disc #3. Both of these players took Incomplete Quests. When the Discs are reallocated, Sebastian receives Disc #3 and Christopher receives Disc #4."

So, if a single player in a 4-player game takes an incomplete Quest, that player always receives the '4' turn order disc, regardless of the disc he had. A player can never gain an advantage in turn order if they take an incomplete Quest.


But that is what I said? And the rulebook has an incomplete example that cannot be relied on in this case.

Let's make this clear once and for all, in my opinion, if:

John has disc #1, takes quest #2
Matt has disc #2, does not complete a quest
Robert has disc #3, does not complete a quest
Mike has disc #4, takes quest #4


Then the order for next round would be:

Matt, John, Robert, Mike

Correct or not? If not, then rulebook is simply not clear. It first says to allocate discs to players who took quests and then the incomplete quests.
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Slashdoctor wrote:


Let's make this clear once and for all, in my opinion, if:

John has disc #1, takes quest #2
Matt has disc #2, does not complete a quest
Robert has disc #3, does not complete a quest
Mike has disc #4, takes quest #4


Then the order for next round would be:

Matt, John, Robert, Mike

Correct or not? If not, then rulebook is simply not clear. It first says to allocate discs to players who took quests and then the incomplete quests.


Having not read the rules or played the game, only saw videos of gameplay, I think you're not right in your example...

What I read from what is shown here is that:
John will took Quest #2
Matt Took and Incomplete Quest 1
Robert took Incomplete Quest 3
Mike took Quest 4...

After doing all the transfer they are allowed, at the end of the Turn:
Disc 1 will be take by John because Quest 1 was incomplete by Matt and John took Quest 2
Disc 2 will be taken by Mike because he took the other completed Quest
Disc 3 will be taken by Matt because he and Robert both took uncompleted Quests and Matt has the the current lower disc so it breaks the tie
Disc 4 is for Robert because he had the highest disc of the players with incomplete quests...

so at the end it will be:
John, Mike, Matt and Robert

I may be wrong but that's what I read from the things shown here

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Brett J. Gilbert
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Slashdoctor wrote:
...if:

John has disc #1, takes quest #2
Matt has disc #2, does not complete a quest
Robert has disc #3, does not complete a quest
Mike has disc #4, takes quest #4


Then the order for next round would be:

Matt, John, Robert, Mike


This is incorrect. The turn order for the next round should be:

1. John (who took the lowest-numbered completed Quest), then
2. Mike (who took the second-lowest-numbered completed Quest), then
3. Matt (who took an incomplete Quest, but was already ahead of Robert in the turn order), then
4. Robert (who took an incomplete Quest, but was already behind Matt in the turn order).

All players who take complete Quests take their places in the new turn order ahead of all those who do not, with the order of those who do not broken by their current turn order (if, that is, there is more than one — which is rare, but of course is possible).
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55cards wrote:
Slashdoctor wrote:
...if:

John has disc #1, takes quest #2
Matt has disc #2, does not complete a quest
Robert has disc #3, does not complete a quest
Mike has disc #4, takes quest #4


Then the order for next round would be:

Matt, John, Robert, Mike


This is incorrect. The turn order for the next round should be:

1. John (who took the lowest completed Quest), then
2. Mike (who took the second-lowest completed Quest), then
3. Matt (who took an incomplete Quest, but was already ahead of Robert in the turn order), then
4. Robert (who took an incomplete Quest, but was already behind Matt in the turn order).

All players who take complete Quests take their places in the new turn order ahead of all those who do not, with the order of those who do not broken by their current turn order (if, that is, there is more than one — which is rare, but of course is possible).


Looks like I read it right

When will the English version of the game be available in Europe? I'm waiting
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55cards wrote:
Slashdoctor wrote:
...if:

John has disc #1, takes quest #2
Matt has disc #2, does not complete a quest
Robert has disc #3, does not complete a quest
Mike has disc #4, takes quest #4


Then the order for next round would be:

Matt, John, Robert, Mike


This is incorrect. The turn order for the next round should be:

1. John (who took the lowest completed Quest), then
2. Mike (who took the second-lowest completed Quest), then
3. Matt (who took an incomplete Quest, but was already ahead of Robert in the turn order), then
4. Robert (who took an incomplete Quest, but was already behind Matt in the turn order).

All players who take complete Quests take their places in the new turn order ahead of all those who do not, with the order of those who do not broken by their current turn order (if, that is, there is more than one — which is rare, but of course is possible).


In that case, the use if 'First' in the rulebook is certainly incorrect. Whether the intent or not, the whole section implies that players with quests will be solved first and players take the order disc with the number they selected with their quest.

The whole 'and so on' implies that if the player who took quest 1 gets disc 1, then others are the same way. And the exception is detailed below, for players who did not complete a quest - and that section says that players take the highest available disc.

So the rulebook certainly says something different than the official clarification.

But this is good to know, though my group actually liked the way the rulebook explains this and we might continue playing like that. This gives more depth to quests as sometimes you might not want a quest.
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Paulo Renato
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How come the Rulebook is incorrect if I just read your quote from the rulebook and got the order right??

You just misinterpreted it... the rule is well written and it's what makes sense... a player that did a complete quest is always ahead, is favored by the Gods, against a player that did not complete the quest, so they'll always be playing first in the next round of the game
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Eisen Montalvo
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Muse23PT wrote:
How come the Rulebook is incorrect if I just read your quote from the rulebook and got the order right??

You just misinterpreted it... the rule is well written and it's what makes sense... a player that did a complete quest is always ahead, is favored by the Gods, against a player that did not complete the quest, so they'll always be playing first in the next round of the game



I don't own the game, I'm awaiting eagerly and patiently for the release in US.

After seeing the example from Brett, it makes sense now. I think the confusion comes from the first part of the rule. Only the players that completed the quest can participate in the first step of reallocation of disks. Then the players who didn't complete quests go and distribute the remaining disks.

I think the rule could've been written more precisely.
E.g. "First, reallocate the Discs according to the Quests taken and completed by the players in Phase II."
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eisen wrote:

After seeing the example from Brett, it makes sense now. I think the confusion comes from the first part of the rule. Only the players that completed the quest can participate in the first step of reallocation of disks. Then the players who didn't complete quests go and distribute the remaining disks.

I think the rule could've been written more precisely.
E.g. "First, reallocate the Discs according to the Quests taken and completed by the players in Phase II."


That would have certainly be a better wording for the rule and I think that the first part of the Original rule could be easily misinterpreted if you only read that... but when you red the following part that talks about Incomplete Quests that says:

"A Player with an Incomplete Quest automatically takes the disc with the highest number"

It makes it pretty clear to me that a player with an Incomplete Quest will always be last in the next round, unless there are more players with incomplete quest and the tie-breaker for the turn order for those players with incomplete quests is the disc for the current turn...

So, your wording would have been better but it's still pretty clear...
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The french rulebook is more accurate. It doesn't say something like "players take the token with the same number as their quest", it says something like "players with complete quests take the smallest number tokens" and then "players with incomplete quests automatically take tokens with hightest number". It is not the exact words but it means that.

To choose to complete a quest must always give you an advantage over players who get incomplete quests.
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Sergio Saavedra
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Agree with SlashDoctor

The word "first" in the rulebook is confusing. In fact, with no explanation, I assume that the players that have incomplete Quest take the highest remaining number.

With the clarification of 55cards the case is closed, but I think that is not always fair that, for example, the player that took the #4 quest, takes the #2 disk, because when he took the quest, he chose to be the fourth player in order to get 3 gold and transfering 3 cards, so, be the second player, having 3 gold and transfering 3 card seems too good comparing with the player that took the #1 quest.

Anyways, I will apologize to my friends for misusing the rule.

Greets

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sergio1985 wrote:
Agree with SlashDoctor

The word "first" in the rulebook is confusing. In fact, with no explanation, I assume that the players that have incomplete Quest take the highest remaining number.

With the clarification of 55cards the case is closed, but I think that is not always fair that, for example, the player that took the #4 quest, takes the #2 disk, because when he took the quest, he chose to be the fourth player in order to get 3 gold and transfering 3 cards, so, be the second player, having 3 gold and transfering 3 card seems too good comparing with the player that took the #1 quest.

Anyways, I will apologize to my friends for misusing the rule.

Greets



Player who chose quest #4 still gets golds and VP written on his quest, he only gets a token that doesn't correspond to his quest number. It only changes the turn order, not the bonus you get from your quest.
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reloadead wrote:
sergio1985 wrote:
Agree with SlashDoctor

The word "first" in the rulebook is confusing. In fact, with no explanation, I assume that the players that have incomplete Quest take the highest remaining number.

With the clarification of 55cards the case is closed, but I think that is not always fair that, for example, the player that took the #4 quest, takes the #2 disk, because when he took the quest, he chose to be the fourth player in order to get 3 gold and transfering 3 cards, so, be the second player, having 3 gold and transfering 3 card seems too good comparing with the player that took the #1 quest.

Anyways, I will apologize to my friends for misusing the rule.

Greets



Player who chose quest #4 still gets golds and VP written on his quest, he only gets a token that doesn't correspond to his quest number. It only changes the turn order, not the bonus you get from your quest.


I think Sergio was suggesting that getting the extra gold and transfers and getting a bump in turn order was unfair. Well, your competitors might indeed think so(!), but then I would suggest that they take more care to complete a Quest next time.

No player is forced is take an Incomplete Quest, other than by their own hand — and if they do, the Gods are certainly not going to be happy about it!
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55cards wrote:
reloadead wrote:
sergio1985 wrote:
Agree with SlashDoctor

The word "first" in the rulebook is confusing. In fact, with no explanation, I assume that the players that have incomplete Quest take the highest remaining number.

With the clarification of 55cards the case is closed, but I think that is not always fair that, for example, the player that took the #4 quest, takes the #2 disk, because when he took the quest, he chose to be the fourth player in order to get 3 gold and transfering 3 cards, so, be the second player, having 3 gold and transfering 3 card seems too good comparing with the player that took the #1 quest.

Anyways, I will apologize to my friends for misusing the rule.

Greets


Player who chose quest #4 still gets golds and VP written on his quest, he only gets a token that doesn't correspond to his quest number. It only changes the turn order, not the bonus you get from your quest.


I think Sergio was suggesting that getting the extra gold and transfers and getting a bump in turn order was unfair. Well, your competitors might indeed think so(!), but then I would suggest that they take more care to complete a Quest next time.

No player is forced is take an Incomplete Quest, other than by their own hand — and if they do, the Gods are certainly not going to be happy about it!



Yes it can seem unfair but hey you made an effort to manage your columns better than your opponents. So the gods congratulates you.
It is not only a combo game, you have to make hard choices to choose which colum you discard each turn. If you handle this well, you get rewards, that's how I see things. If not, well... no reward.
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Sergio Saavedra
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Agree with you 55cards, when there are clear rules from the begginning of the game, you have no surprises and the moves of the players are chosen in order to make the game "fair"

BTW, I F****G LOVE THIS GAME
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sergio1985 wrote:
Agree with you 55cards, when there are clear rules from the begginning of the game, you have no surprises and the moves of the players are chosen in order to make the game "fair"

Very happy to help clarify this.

sergio1985 wrote:
BTW, I F****G LOVE THIS GAME

Thank you for f*****g saying so!
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Okay, yeah, I was with Slash on this one, that was unclear. I've been doing the same thing he said - the player(s) with the broken quests get whatever discs remain and the player who chose to go fourth WILL go fourth, etc, not get a bump because another player didn't take a quest.

I too thought it was a very elegant solution and way to not get completely hosed for not taking a quest. It's not like you get a fourth card. Seems like going last in the turn order next round AND getting virtually nothing to do in phase 3 is a bit over the top as far as punishment is concerned.
 
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kelann08 wrote:
Okay, yeah, I was with Slash on this one, that was unclear. I've been doing the same thing he said - the player(s) with the broken quests get whatever discs remain and the player who chose to go fourth WILL go fourth, etc, not get a bump because another player didn't take a quest.

I too thought it was a very elegant solution and way to not get completely hosed for not taking a quest. It's not like you get a fourth card. Seems like going last in the turn order next round AND getting virtually nothing to do in phase 3 is a bit over the top as far as punishment is concerned.

Donny: I'm glad you found the clarification you were looking for elsewhere (https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/19675191#19675191) in this thread, and I appreciate that we could have done more to clarify in the rules our intention about how incomplete quests interact with turn order for the next Epoch. Apologies for any inconvenience caused.

(Also, if you want to continue to play this aspect of the game as you were, then you have my blessing! It is, as you say, a little more generous (in those cases where it makes a difference) to the hapless player who displeased the Gods by failing to complete a Quest.)
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No worries, Brett. Thanks for clarifying for everyone.
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So basically - Anyone who has a completed Quest receives the lowest Order of Play disc in 'ascending order'.

Then - Players who didn't complete a quest receive a new one in ascending order?

Sorry if I seem a little thick!
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