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Subject: Do you think RSP will eventually have people defending pedophilia ? rss

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jeremy cobert
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I assume we will eventually have someone in RSP on the pro side as "we can not judge" seems to be the most important rule around here. oh, I know a religion that is totally cool with this, so maybe it will come from that angle !

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/06/opinion/pedophilia-a-disor...

Quote:
CAMDEN, N.J. — THINK back to your first childhood crush. Maybe it was a classmate or a friend next door. Most likely, through school and into adulthood, your affections continued to focus on others in your approximate age group. But imagine if they did not.

By some estimates, 1 percent of the male population continues, long after puberty, to find themselves attracted to prepubescent children. These people are living with pedophilia, a sexual attraction to prepubescents that often constitutes a mental illness. Unfortunately, our laws are failing them and, consequently, ignoring opportunities to prevent child abuse.

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders defines pedophilia as an intense and recurrent sexual interest in prepubescent children, and a disorder if it causes a person “marked distress or interpersonal difficulty” or if the person acts on his interests. Yet our laws ignore pedophilia until after the commission of a sexual offense, emphasizing punishment, not prevention.


She also has a follow up here

http://www.phillymag.com/news/2014/10/06/pedophilia-not-a-cr...

Quote:
Q&A: Rutgers Law Prof Who Says Pedophilia Is Not a Crime

It’s a disorder, argues Margo Kaplan.

Margo Kaplan is not very popular today. In the Monday edition of the New York Times, the Rutgers-Camden law professor, an NYU and Harvard graduate, takes to the op-ed pages to argue that we’ve got it all wrong when it comes to pedophilia. She writes that pedophiles don’t necessarily turn out to be child molesters and that pedophilia is not a choice, i.e. a pedophile might be born that way. We reached her in her office in Camden to discuss.
Read more at


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J
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Very doubtful as the issue of consent rules it out.
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Christopher Seguin
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I think Ms. Kamden has it wrong in thinking that it is a disorder but NOT a crime.

I would like to point out to Ms. Kamden (and anyone else that may rush to her defense) that it is both a disorder AND a crime.

Should we treat the disorder? Absolutely, just like we treat other mental illnesses. Should we also punish the crime (if the disorder actually leads to a criminal offense)? Absolutely!

Having feelings towards children is one thing - acting on them in completely different, and that is the line where it goes from disorder to criminal.
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Erik Henry
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She's obviously not defending acting on pedophilia at all; in fact she's trying to do more to prevent that from happening. I'm not sure that I completely agree with her, but mostly she's making good arguments.

Where specifically do you disagree with her?

Or are you just taking the opportunity to suggest a slippery slope argument that because some people don't condemn homosexuals that soon they'll be arguing for child molestation too?

Edit: Question directed to Jeremy
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Erik Henry
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chrisnd wrote:
I think Ms. Kamden has it wrong in thinking that it is a disorder but NOT a crime.

I would like to point out to Ms. Kamden (and anyone else that may rush to her defense) that it is both a disorder AND a crime.

Should we treat the disorder? Absolutely, just like we treat other mental illnesses. Should we also punish the crime (if the disorder actually leads to a criminal offense)? Absolutely!

Having feelings towards children is one thing - acting on them in completely different, and that is the line where it goes from disorder to criminal.

I don't think she's saying what you think she's saying, because you pretty much say the same thing.
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chrisnd wrote:
I think Ms. Kamden has it wrong in thinking that it is a disorder but NOT a crime.

I would like to point out to Ms. Kamden (and anyone else that may rush to her defense) that it is both a disorder AND a crime.

Should we treat the disorder? Absolutely, just like we treat other mental illnesses. Should we also punish the crime (if the disorder actually leads to a criminal offense)? Absolutely!

Having feelings towards children is one thing - acting on them in completely different, and that is the line where it goes from disorder to criminal.


I remember reading an anonymous article online once written by someone who was attracted to minors. This person was afraid to seek help because, despite not having committed any crimes, they were worried about being treated like a criminal.
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jeremy cobert
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Erik17 wrote:
Or are you just taking the opportunity to suggest a slippery slope argument that because some people don't condemn homosexuals that soon they'll be arguing for child molestation too?


I don't condemn homosexuals, In fact I treat them as I do any other group. I am merely pointing out this is the first article like this that I have ever seen. Eventually someone in RSP will take the position of defending it becasue most of the RSP moonbats are afraid of judging anyone for anything, ever.
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Erik Henry
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jeremycobert wrote:
Erik17 wrote:
Or are you just taking the opportunity to suggest a slippery slope argument that because some people don't condemn homosexuals that soon they'll be arguing for child molestation too?


I don't condemn homosexuals, In fact I treat them as I do any other group. I am merely pointing out this is the first article like this that I have ever seen. Eventually someone in RSP will take the position of defending it becasue most of the RSP moonbats are afraid of judging anyone for anything, ever.

Defending what, though? What in her articles are you taking issue with?
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jeremycobert wrote:
Eventually someone in RSP will take the position of defending it becasue most of the RSP moonbats are afraid of judging anyone for anything, ever.


I bet they have some choice words that come to mind from their judgment of you.
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Chad Ellis
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chrisnd wrote:
I think Ms. Kamden has it wrong in thinking that it is a disorder but NOT a crime.


I'm approximately 100% sure that she's saying that it's not a crime to be a pedophile, not that it's not a crime to have sex with a child.
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Ryin
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Aren't they born that way?
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Donald
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chrisnd wrote:
I think Ms. Kamden has it wrong in thinking that it is a disorder but NOT a crime.

I would like to point out to Ms. Kamden (and anyone else that may rush to her defense) that it is both a disorder AND a crime.



I think that is what she is saying, she's just cutting the language very fine. If you're attracted to children, you're a pedophile which she's calling a mental illness. If you act on the attraction, you're a child molester and need locked up.

It seems she's trying to redefine pedophilia as just the attraction without acting on the impulse, which doesn't seem worth the effort to me. Invent a new term for people with the urge that don't act on it instead of trying to make everyone accept a new definition.

 
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Erik Henry
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Donald wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
I think Ms. Kamden has it wrong in thinking that it is a disorder but NOT a crime.

I would like to point out to Ms. Kamden (and anyone else that may rush to her defense) that it is both a disorder AND a crime.



I think that is what she is saying, she's just cutting the language very fine. If you're attracted to children, you're a pedophile which she's calling a mental illness. If you act on the attraction, you're a child molester and need locked up.

It seems she's trying to redefine pedophilia as just the attraction without acting on the impulse, which doesn't seem worth the effort to me. Invent a new term for people with the urge that don't act on it instead of trying to make everyone accept a new definition.


I don't think she's redefining the term. It really only refers to the attraction already.
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Didn't we have a creep at one point arguing for it who got exposed quickly, deleted his comments and vanished?
 
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Andy Beaton
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Donald wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
I think Ms. Kamden has it wrong in thinking that it is a disorder but NOT a crime.

I would like to point out to Ms. Kamden (and anyone else that may rush to her defense) that it is both a disorder AND a crime.



I think that is what she is saying, she's just cutting the language very fine. If you're attracted to children, you're a pedophile which she's calling a mental illness. If you act on the attraction, you're a child molester and need locked up.

It seems she's trying to redefine pedophilia as just the attraction without acting on the impulse, which doesn't seem worth the effort to me. Invent a new term for people with the urge that don't act on it instead of trying to make everyone accept a new definition.



Unless you can treat or even cure the impulse *before* it is acted on - that would surely be a win?

(ob. BGG content - I once ran a D&D campaign where a powerful good cleric defeated an evil wizard by casting cure disease on him, then mounting a convincing explanation that mental illness was at the root of most of what we call 'evil' in the world. Discuss, if you wish.)
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klakak wrote:
Aren't they born that way?
You don't see the difference between two consulting adults acting on how they were born without hurting anyone and one adult acting on how they were born in a way that hurts a child?
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Is this really news? What else should pedophilia be? The crime is in acting on the attraction, not the attraction. Not sure about the US, but here there's offers of therapy for people who find themselves attracted to children and who fear they might act on it. Of course hardly anyone dares to go there.

Unsurprising to see Jeremy jump on that however, to see someone "defend pedophilia".
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whac3 wrote:
Didn't we have a creep at one point arguing for it who got exposed quickly, deleted his comments and vanished?
maybe, but one wrong person doesn't equal RSP. If that were the case, people would think we hate poor people like cobert or old people like galad.
 
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I have a friend who is sexually attracted to children. They have no intention of harming a child. If they told me they had sex with a minor, I'd try to convince them to turn themselves in, then turn them in myself if they didn't. (Just to be clear.)

It kinda sucks that they are essentially barred from talking to a therapist about struggling with their attractions due to mandatory reporting laws and people's judgements. They have family members who won't speak to them anymore after they disclosed while looking for support.

Anyway, my friend is thoughtful and has support and leads a pretty normal life -- someone without resources who is unable to find support, and is institutionally barred from seeking support, may be more likely to harm a child. And that's shitty for everyone involved, obviously.

So sure, I think we need structural change regarding how we view pedophilia -- hopefully in a way that harms less children. I do think the "born that way" is kind of a false target -- unless the etiology is important in the treatment. I don't really have a solution in mind or anything, though.

I'm not sure about that 1% figure, that might include ephebophilia, or might be conjured out of thin air. I assume these are plethysmograph studies on general populations? It's a bit of a hard stat to find because of the stigma. (The stigma against harming children is good, obviously.)
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Michael Carter
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Donald wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
I think Ms. Kamden has it wrong in thinking that it is a disorder but NOT a crime.

I would like to point out to Ms. Kamden (and anyone else that may rush to her defense) that it is both a disorder AND a crime.



I think that is what she is saying, she's just cutting the language very fine. If you're attracted to children, you're a pedophile which she's calling a mental illness. If you act on the attraction, you're a child molester and need locked up.

It seems she's trying to redefine pedophilia as just the attraction without acting on the impulse, which doesn't seem worth the effort to me. Invent a new term for people with the urge that don't act on it instead of trying to make everyone accept a new definition.



Pedophilia has always meant the attraction.
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TheChin! wrote:
klakak wrote:
Aren't they born that way?
You don't see the difference between two consulting adults acting on how they were born without hurting anyone and one adult acting on how they were born in a way that hurts a child?


I see the 'how they were born' part.
 
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Didn't we just have a thread with that newbie, CapNCrunch basically making comparisons of sexual orientation laws to pedophilia? That seems more like a brain dead righty talking point than a brain dead lefty talking point.
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Isaac Citrom
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However, we know that one's sexuality is not a medical condition, should not be treated, and cannot be treated. Therefore, pedophiles, who outnumber transgenders, for example, about 50-to-1, are stuck such that to act upon their sexual inclinations is a crime.

Note that the DSM, as usual, doesn't describe pedophilia in and of itself as a problem. Rather, only when it causes the pedophile problems in his life, is there anything to treat psychologically. (Similarly, the DSM defines addiction along similar lines. If you can consume cocaine 6 times per day and not have it affect any part of your life, then it's not an addiction as such.)

That is what that law professor is saying. Pedophilia in and of itself is not a crime, i.e. a criminal act of pedophilia ought to be able to always use the defense of a lack of responsibility due to a mental problem.


What Jeremy alludes to (I think) and where I agree with him, is that the contemporary discussion of sexuality is double edged. "(I'm a man) and I desire men," is a perfectly normal aspect of the human condition. "(I'm an adult) and I desire children," for some reason is not equal.

Personally, I don't believe that homosexuality is a normal part of the human condition. Though, we are now in the process of institutionalizing it. I expect that some time in the future, if politics allows research in that direction, homosexuality may well be linked to something as simple as a single gene. Then, assuming something like gene therapy, does on flip that lever and turn a homosexual into an heterosexual.

In the meanwhile, although I understand why the homosexual community hates the analogy of pedophilia, I'm not seeing how pedophilia is in any way biologically different than homosexuality. It matters such that if any and all sexuality is "just the way it is," then why should the pedophile be especially excluded.
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J
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klakak wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
klakak wrote:
Aren't they born that way?
You don't see the difference between two consulting adults acting on how they were born without hurting anyone and one adult acting on how they were born in a way that hurts a child?


I see the 'how they were born' part.

And?
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jeremycobert wrote:
Erik17 wrote:
Or are you just taking the opportunity to suggest a slippery slope argument that because some people don't condemn homosexuals that soon they'll be arguing for child molestation too?


I don't condemn homosexuals, In fact I treat them as I do any other group. I am merely pointing out this is the first article like this that I have ever seen. Eventually someone in RSP will take the position of defending it becasue most of the RSP moonbats are afraid of judging anyone for anything, ever.


I judge all the time, we all do, as a matter of fact, I am judging you right now.
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