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Robinson Crusoe: Adventures on the Cursed Island» Forums » Rules

Subject: Secret Cave + Giant Snake rss

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So we were playing today and my friend was exploring the island and had to draw an adventure card.

The card he drew was:
"Secret Cave - DECIDE: Discard this card OR draw 3 Mystery Cards (only resolve 1 (beast) or 1 (trap) and up to 2 (treasure))"

He decided to draw Mystery cards.

The first card he drew from the Mystery deck happened to be:
"Giant Snake - Discard all your (determination). Stop drawing Mystery cards."

Now, does that mean he is still able to draw 3 cards and then decide which to resolve according to the max numbers given in "Secret Cave", or does he have to actually resolve the Mystery cards the moment he draws them, meaning he has to stop drawing cards after the Giant Snake comes up? What is the timing here?
 
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It's not a timing issue, but an issue of "which text overrules which".

If you get a text that tells you to stop drawing Mystery cards, that always overrules in this situation. And you stop...

This stopping can be a boon or a bane. Sometimes it prevents you from more harm (if you would be forced to draw more "bad" cards), sometimes you don't get to the good stuff (the treasure), and sometimes it makes things easier:
in scenario #4, if you need to draw 4 Mystery cards when exploring a totem location, and the first one tells you to stop, you stop - and the location STILL counts as explored!
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Paul Bach
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Dumon wrote:
It's not a timing issue, but an issue of "which text overrules which".

If you get a text that tells you to stop drawing Mystery cards, that always overrules in this situation. And you stop...


It is a question of timing.

Dienes wrote:
Now, does that mean he is still able to draw 3 cards and then decide which to resolve according to the max numbers given in "Secret Cave", or does he have to actually resolve the Mystery cards the moment he draws them, meaning he has to stop drawing cards after the Giant Snake comes up? What is the timing here?


The OP is asking whether each card is resolved as it is drawn or are all cards possible drawn and then all of them resolved.

My question would be if the first card drawn had directed me to resolve 1 trap, would drawing Giant Snake stop me from digging deeper until I found a trap?
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ArrBeeDee Dial
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I would say "you stop drawing"

Thematically, "Snakes, why did it have to be snakes..." Your character isn't going any further forward no matter what treasures might be in the Egyption tomb...
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Paul Bach
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Raujour wrote:
I would say "you stop drawing"

Thematically, "Snakes, why did it have to be snakes..." Your character isn't going any further forward no matter what treasures might be in the Egyption tomb... :what:


The rules state:
Rules, p. 16 wrote:
When you have to resolve a specic type of Mystery, continue drawing cards from the deck until you get one with the indicated type of Mystery (ignore the rest).


If you were supposed to stop drawing because of the text of a card of a non-indicated type, what is the point of "ignor[ing] the rest"?

I had asked my question because Dumon's answer seemed to leave this instance ambiguous.
 
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PaulRadagast wrote:
If you were supposed to stop drawing because of the text of a card of a non-indicated type, what is the point of "ignor[ing] the rest"?

I had asked my question because Dumon's answer seemed to leave this instance ambiguous.

You'll never stop drawing because of a non-indicated type. The text makes no difference on those cards at all, ignore everything about them. In this case, all 3 types were indicated: 1 (trap or beast), and 2 treasures.

Dienes wrote:
Now, does that mean he is still able to draw 3 cards and then decide which to resolve according to the max numbers given in "Secret Cave", or does he have to actually resolve the Mystery cards the moment he draws them, meaning he has to stop drawing cards after the Giant Snake comes up? What is the timing here?

You don't just draw 3 cards and resolve the ones that match, you draw them one at a time until (up to) 3 are resolved. Here, the first card resolved ends the process entirely.
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Enhancing on what runtsta said:

This is a push-your-luck element in the game. If you are not directed by an effect to simply "draw X cards and resolve them" (as is the case in scenario #4, with the totem exploration), you will always be told to "draw and resolve at most X cards of type A and Y cards of type B". In this case, there will always be at least one type of Mystery card to ignore.

Any ignored cards are ignored completely. No text or icon on them has any impact on the whole thing.

From the ones you draw, you draw each card on its own, one at a time (no matter if ignored cards are put aside or if there are no ignored cards).

After you resolved the first card you should, you USUALLY have the choice of pushing on (to the next card of one of the specified types, if maximum has not been reached) or stopping. If you stop, that is that. If you push on, lather, rinse, repeat. Until maximum of cards resolved in all specified types has been reached.

Not so when you are told simply to "draw and resolve X" cards, without specifying a type (as is the case ONLY in scenario #4, so far). Then, you also draw and resolve cards one by one, but you resolve any type. Also, there is no "push your luck" element, since you have been told how many cards you MUST resolve. You cannot choose - you MUST draw the next card until the maximum has been reached.


HOWEVER, if at any point during this procedure you are told by a card YOU RESOLVE to "stop drawing", you stop drawing, and the procedure has come to an end. You cannot choose to push on, and you do not have to draw more cards - even if maxima have not been reached yet.


Which is also why this is not a matter of timing, since the cards are always resolved subsequently and when drawn.


Hope that helps.
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So as I understand it, the situation for Secret Cave would be like this:

(1) Draw Mystery card
(2) Resolve if valid type and not reached max for that type
(3) Stop drawing or go back to step (1)

Step (2) is not optional, right? I cannot choose not to resolve a card which could be resolved?

Does step (3) also apply if step (2) yielded a card that has to be ignored?
Does step (3) also apply if the very first card drawn in step (2) is card that has to be ignored (does not apply to Secret Cave)?

Also, where's the information coming from that step (3) is actually available? Is it somewhere in the rules, that you can decide to stop drawing cards when you havn't reached the amount stated on the Adventure card yet?

Is seems to me I'm overcomplicating things
 
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Yes, you are!


But don't worry, most of us have been there!

Your 3-step-approach is correct, as long as you remember to stop after step (2) when the card tells you to (it overrides the process)...


And don't forget to reshuffle the IGNORED cards back into the mystery deck.

Also, you are right, you cannot choose to NOT resolve a card if step (2) can be fulfilled (type valid and not at maximum).

Regarding the "step (3) question:
This has not been explained explicitly, but to me it was always clear that you make a decision after resolving a card: whether to pursue the next card resolve or not. In between card draws of invalid Mystery type, you then cannot choose to stop. It also seems (to me) that this was the intended way to do it.
You cannot stop before resolving the first Mystery card - that one you HAVE to resolve. Only afterwards can you choose to push on, or stop drawing...

In short, I would augment you process thusly:

(1) Draw Mystery card
(2) Resolve if valid type and not reached max for that type; otherwise go to step (5)
(3) If resolved text tells you to stop drawing, go to (6)
(4) Choose: go to step (1) or go to step (6)
(5) Go to step (1)
(6) Stop Drawing




As to your question where you can find it - I guess you use the German edition (Pegasus)? If so, there is a whole paragraph dedicated to Mystery Cards and how to deal with them on p. 19.

If not, and you have an English or the original Portal edition in German, you find the Mystery paragraph in the appendices. However, unfortunately only the examples hint at how these cards need to be resolved. And even those can be misunderstood, as they are not described very clearly...
 
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Thanks Dumon!

Yes, I use the German Pegasus version, but my question was about where I could find a rule that states that only the first card is mandatory and the remaining ones are optional push-your-luck cards. But you made it clear now that this is just some kind of assumption made by you (?). I am not completely sold on that. To me it seems if the cards says I should draw 3, then I have to draw 3, not up to 3. Especially since you don't apply that same rule to those cards which do not name any specific types to draw.

In the end, I will go with drawing cards and resolving them until I reach 3 resolved (according to type limits) cards or a card that stops me from continuing.

For example in the Secret Cave:

(1) Draw treasure, resolve
(2) Draw treasure, resolve
(3) Draw treasure, ignore (treasure max reached)
(4) Draw trap, resolve
(5) Draw trap, ignore (trap max reached)
(6) Draw beast, resolve
(7) Stop (3 cards resolved)


I am actually thinking about separating the deck into three stacks of the same type each.

If you have to draw a treasure, just draw from the treasure deck.

If you have to draw according to e.g. the Secret Cave, take the max of each (2 treasures, 1 trap, 1 beast) and shuffle those 4 cards, then reveal and resolve the top 3 cards.

That would save me a lot of headache


Anyways, thanks to all of you guys!
 
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Its not simply an assumption - I wrote the German rules, and know almost all rules sets by heart (although I get details wrong, sometimes - the longer I haven't played the game, the harder it gets to remember every little thing). But you couldn't know that...


And to alleviate your doubts, let me quote from the rules on page 19:
"Muss ein Spieler Geheimniskarten ziehen, deckt er eine Karte nach der anderen bis zur ersten eines angegebenen Kartentyps auf."
Here we have the specific rule as to what you do at the beginning, i.e. when you start drawing cards.

A little further down:
"Nachdem die erste Karte gezogen und ggf. ausgeführt wurde*, kann der Spieler entscheiden, ob er weitere Karten aufdecken möchte oder lieber hier abbricht."
This is the important part. The player decides to go on or stop drawing. What happens is stated in the next part (see below). However, I have to mention that the part in italics (the one marked with the * here), unfortunately, is not completely correct. This sentence contradicts the one I quoted above and makes it seem like you could already stop drawing BEFORE you resolve the first card. This is not possible, and the wording here is wrong. Whether this is my mistake or has happened due to erroneous editing, I cannot say anymore. However, the fact is that what is written here (i.e. the decision) CAN only happen AFTER the resolving of the first card. As stated before, you draw until you find such a card...

Immediately after that:
"Entscheidet er sich für den Abbruch, werden keine weiteren Geheimniskarten gezogen. Entscheidet er sich dafür weiterzumachen, zieht er weitere Karten, bis er erneut die Karte eines angegebenen Kartentyps aufdeckt und mit ihr genauso verfährt, wie oben beschrieben."
These two sentence state which options are available - stop or push onwards. Also, it is again stated that you draw (when pushing on) until you find the next applicable card type. Just mentioning it to further strengthen my "claim" (in the last paragraph) that you cannot stop after any card and decide, you can only decide after resolved cards...

That the "stop drawing cards" instruction trumps instructions of previous cards is not mentioned explicitly in the rules. This might have been an oversight.

However, if you come at it from another angle, maybe then it will become clearer. Ask yourself: "If such an effect does not stop me from drawing more cards I have been told to draw - how else could this effect be applied?" On Event or Adventure cards you will always be told how many card of which specified types you need to draw and resolve. This is also true for most other effects in the game (exception: scenario #4, see below). If you would not be stopped by such an effect, the effect would cease to have any meaning at all! Especially, since, as the rules on page 19 state clearly:
"Alle anderen gezogenen Karten (deren Typ nicht angegeben ist) werden zunächst beiseite gelegt."
Which means they are not resolved at this point. Further down, this is followed by:
"Ist das Kartenziehen beendet [...] werden alle ausgeführten Fallen und Monster auf einn entsprechenden Ablagestapel gelegt und alle beiseite gelegten Karten wieder in den Stapel der Geheimniskarten gemischt."
Hence, effects of cards that are not resolved due to their specifically mentioned type will never be applied. So if you ignore the "stop drawing" instruction on resolved cards, how would it come into play?

Even if it is not mentioned in the rules explicitly:
any "stop drawing Mystery cards" instruction trumps any "draw xy Mystery cards" instruction.
Take it from me - or ask Pegasus directly...


Regarding scenario #4:
Here we have a special situation with specific rules regarding the drawing of Mystery cards. This situation is explicitly stated on page 28 of the manual, left column, last paragraph. I won't cite the whole paragraph - you can read it there. Suffice it to say, here the "stop drawing" instruction is covered explicitly.


I hope that helps to alleviate your doubts.
Most questions you will have will be answered in the German rules - we made sure of that (while I wrote the whole thing, I was not the only one working on them - there was quite some editing going on, too). It helps applying the instructions in the rules manual the way they are stated there. We have done our best to make them as clear and unambiguous as possible, although at some places we might not have succeeded as much as we would want to (and in some instances might even have made a mistake). Nevertheless, most of it is in there. Which is why I recommend familiarizing yourself with the layout and the letter of these rules.

However, if you happen to have questions again, don't find a detail or are in a hurry, don't hesitate to ask. We here on the geek will try to answer your questions to the fullest of our abilities, if time permits. Otherwise (maybe if you still don't trust my "assumptions", as is (of course) your prerogative), you can always directly ask the folks at Pegasus, of course - either in their forum or via eMail.

And if you don't like a rule, this game is VERY cumstomizable. Just houserule it, I personally guarantee that it will not break the game (but maybe will make it a little harder or easier). I would even say that the game was meant to be taylored to your individual tastes, in the beginning (by the author)...

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PS:
Separating Mystery cards into three separate decks is a VERY bad idea. Part of the charm of those Adventure cards telling you to "draw 2 monsters and 1 treasure" or something similar is the push-your luck-aspect. There is no inherent order in the shuffled deck, and it could very well be that the second card you draw (after you already survived one monster) is the treasure you crave. But it could also be the second monster...

What you COULD, of course, do is draw the specified amount of cards from each type and shuffle THEM together.
However, if you do that, and then stop after the first card, you have to shuffle the rest back into their specific stacks, which could mean shuffling three times (the drawn cards, and then the two decks from which those came).

However, for scenario #4 you would again need to shuffle them together, as the Totem locations only instruct you to draw "four cards", no matter the type, and a significant randomness could only be insured by mixing them all together thoroughly.

I would therefore advise against it.
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Dumon wrote:
[...] What you COULD, of course, do is draw the specified amount of cards from each type and shuffle THEM together.
However, if you do that, and then stop after the first card, you have to shuffle the rest back into their specific stacks, which could mean shuffling three times (the drawn cards, and then the two decks from which those came). [...]

This is what I meant by:

Dienes wrote:
[...] If you have to draw according to e.g. the Secret Cave, take the max of each (2 treasures, 1 trap, 1 beast) and shuffle those 4 cards, then reveal and resolve the top 3 cards. [...]


Also, wow, I really did not know that you actually did the translation work for the German release, which of course gives massive value to your explanations

Your quotes from the rules are exactly what I was missing. I struggled several hours with the rulebook and totally did not see this.

So effectively this clears up everything so far, thank you a lot
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Don't worry, happens all the time.
Small details get overlooked so easily, especially in our monstrum of a rulebook...


I'm glad I could help you. And it is always good to not take anything at face value (even what I might say). I have made a few errors in the past, and only the constant questioning sometimes helps to clear them up...


Enjoy the game.
It get's easier as you play it. I swear, after four or five games, when you "have the rules down", you will hardly need the rulebook. And the best part - most of the game is so intuitive (even if there are so many details), you will even remember the rules if you take out the game after half a year or a year, maybe even more...
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