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Battlestar Galactica: The Board Game – Daybreak Expansion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Scouted decks and secrecy rss

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Suppose that Player A scouts a deck through whatever means (e.g., launch scout, Boomer's recon, Human fleet, etc.). Player B is then given a choice between the card Player A left on the top of that deck and the second card on that deck-- e.g., by means of Roslin's religious visions, the Admiral selecting a destination card, a Cylon using Caprica, etc. For whatever in-game reason, Player A declines to share with the group whether or not Player B played the card that Player A left on top of the deck, or the other one-- e.g., if a Cylon used human fleet and left a 'bad' destination on top, then he's obviously not going to out an unrvelealed cylon who played that bad destination.

Is it public knowledge whether or not Player B played the card that was left on top, or is that secret? If the latter, then MUST it be a secret? E.g., can the Admiral picking a destination when the Cylon left one on top pick up the cards in such a way that it's really big and obvious that he's playing the other one?

I have sort of assumed the 'public knowledge' resolution, but upon taking a look at the rulebook and the UFAQ, I realized that I didn't actually have a basis for doing so.
 
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Biodiesel
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This is a great question and something I've wondered too. Is the player allowed to shuffle the two cards so players don't know which he picked? Can he put them below the table to pick?
 
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Kwijiboe
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Physical manipulations of the deck are public knowledge.

Any knowledge shared about the contents of the card is limited to "good" or "bad" statements.
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Sappington wrote:
This is a great question and something I've wondered too. Is the player allowed to shuffle the two cards so players don't know which he picked? Can he put them below the table to pick?


And if he is allowed to, MUST he? This makes a huge difference.

Quote:
Physical manipulations of the deck are public knowledge.


This is my inclination as well-- so whether or not Player B played the 'scouted' destination/crisis is public. I'm just not sure about it.
 
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Michael Aldridge
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The question is irrelevant... because in my games, the first person to pull shenanigans like shuffling deck draws is gettin' shoved out the airlock at the earliest opportunity.
 
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Carl Bussema
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I swear we asked this question once and got a ruling. I've been known to be wrong, but really, when it comes to BSG rulings, I'm usually not. [See the end of the UFAQ... I didn't write that. Gave me a good laugh the other day when I found it.]

I'll try to spend some time searching my records and BSG tomorrow for it, and if not, I'll get an official ruling, because this has definitely come up before.

Certainly I'd allow a player to say "he picked the one I left on top" (e.g. of two destinations), because that nicely gets into your word vs. the admiral's, and hey, maybe you're BOTH Cylons! But is it actually public knowledge which of the two physical cards the Admiral picks? I'm not as convinced that this is true. Certainly the rules seem to imply a very strong standard of secrecy, since the Admiral can't say anything about the one he doesn't choose.
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Pasi Ojala
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I agree. You can say it is the card they left or it's not the card they left, but you are not allowed to prove it. A cylon must have a valid possibility of claiming the opposite. (And the same option for the player who scouted.)

Players can try to keep an eye on which card was on the top, but I think that changes the game from a game of intrigue, strategy and tactics to a game of dexterity and speed of observation.
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Biodiesel
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Quote:
Physical manipulations of the deck are public knowledge.


This is still vague. Can I shuffle the two cards for all to see? That becomes a shell game to see if your eyes can follow the cards.

I like albert's suggestion that the Admiral should be required NOT to prove which one he chose. The player should at least cup his hands around both so you don't know for sure which he chose. This will help provide cover for a cylon and reduce human meta gaming.

Admiral should be able to say which he picked, and can say the one he didn't pick was either bad or good. I'd say he could also waffle. And say "well, neither were terrible, but I felt this one was a little better/safer/etc for us".
 
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Kwijiboe
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I just really do not think it matters.

The scouted player can affirm or deny whether he likes the destination choice based on his knowledge from scouting.

In almost all cases, the Admiral either chose the scouted card or the second card drawn. It's up to the players if they want to share knowledge over destinations.

Similarly, it's up to the scouting player to share whether the chosen destination was the scouted destination.

But, if you really want, I suppose you could have the Admiral draw card 1 into his left hand and card 2 into his right. But, there's really not much information to glean from this.

Edit: by the way, why do all your posts start with "test" in the topic line?
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Mindy G
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Sure, why couldn't he shuffle the cards? If I'm thinking between two choices, maybe I'll pile them up and look at one, and switch to the other and back and forth while figuring it out. It's not like you have to draw the top with your left hand and the next with your right so everyone knows what you picked.

Edit: OMG Kwijiboe totally just ninja'd me with the left/right thing. No, just no.
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Kwijiboe
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Certainly agree it's silly.

Yet, there's no procedural rule against it. If anything, I think it does harm some of the integrity of the game. (Secrecy rules). I won't be doing such a thing in my games since its useless knowledge. Or worse, provides an advantage to humans. (Don't particularly like things that give straight advantages to one team or the other).

For the most part though, I think there's little information to gain there. The admiral (or mission specialist) either chose the scouted location or didn't: it's up to those with knowledge of the destinations to provide an opinion over the chosen destination.

 
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Biodiesel
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The question is should secrecy be IMPROVED, by forcing the admiral to hide which card he chose.

Admiral: "Player A, why did you leave such a crappy card on top? You must be a cylon."

Player A: "Liar. That's not the card I left! YOU must be a cylon. "

Admiral: "No, everyone saw me choose to play the card left on top."

Player A:"...."


I'm in favor of eliminating meta-game like this that makes it harder for hidden cylons to operate.


(and my posts have "test" as subject when I post with BGG app on my phone. It's annoying, but I don't know how to change it.)
 
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Pieter
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Kwijiboe wrote:
Similarly, it's up to the scouting player to share whether the chosen destination was the scouted destination.

I don't think this is true. I think this is actually against the secrecy rules as published by FFG. The secrecy rules say that you are not allowed to reveal what the card was that you saw in secret. If the admiral chooses a destination and shows it, and you say "that is the one that I scouted", you actually are revealing what it is that you saw in secret.

When I mod games, BTW, I let the admiral know which card was on top and which one was on the bottom (because he would definitely know that). But I do not let the other players know whether the admiral chose the top or bottom one (and they never ask). Moreover, as a player, when I have scouted a destination and the admiral picks the one I left on top, the most revealing thing that I will say is that the admiral did not give me any reason to suspect him of being a Cylon (if I didn't leave a bad one on top as a hidden Cylon).
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Carl Bussema
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OK, word from on high.

Zach, FFG wrote:

Q: May/must the admiral disclose whether he selected the top destination or the second one (e.g., when the deck has been scouted)?
A: Only if asked. He may not deliberately obfuscate it, and must truthfully answer if asked, but he need not volunteer it.
 
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Mindy G
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That is ridiculous. Has Zach ever even played BSG?
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Carl Bussema
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Discussion in the UFAQ thread, as always.
 
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